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Alernatives to Labour

Colin L said:
I'm quietly optimistic that if the Tories lose by a huge margin (as currently seems likely), highly factionalised as they are, they will struggle to bring the party back together.
The right-wing nutter tendency - ERG / UKIP / Reform UK will hopefully splinter the party and leave them unable to form a majority government ever again. One can only hope.
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I wish. But it won't happen. The media will pull it together and tell us it has to be Rishi and the gang aga.

Jim Audiomisc said:
Yes. It is the image that the bulk of the media present. Alas, arguing dry policy details tends not to attract people into listening. Hence, I think, the impact of the PBB I referenced. Which, of course, will still be skipped over by many who just switch channel or make a cup of coffee instead. But it does at least have some chance of grabbing attention if someone watches the start of the PBB.
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Exactly. This is the point of the political broadcast. Nobody reads the actual manifesto. But "We want to live in a country where..." Is compelling , especially when things are as bad a they currently are.
Sue Pertwee-Tyr said:
I think the problem, electorally, is not so much that they don’t have policies, but that they are generally perceived to be a one trick pony.
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Exactly. This is what I said on Page 1. The task is one of communication, to move the perception on from beardy-weirdies in chunky sweaters and get to a message about "this is what we are about today, in 2023" .
 
Sue Pertwee-Tyr said:
There is, though, a possible upside to a strong SNP showing in Scotland (aside from the fact that their leader at Westminster has been pretty effective at hitting the Tories in PMQ). It’s this:

current polling has Labour on the landslide to end all landslides. Tories annihilated. I’m not at all convinced that, annihilation of Tories excepted, such a result is remotely desirable - Labour unfettered might pander to the worst of its right wing tendencies. So if there’s a strong SNP presence, that’ll temper that a bit, at least, by providing at least some form of opposition, perhaps with LibDems if they can find their, you know, actual Liberal hearts.
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There are 59 Westminster seats for Scotland. In a Labour landslide scenario I don't see them tempering Labour at all and if it's close a coalition is impossible at present. The Greens are inconsequential so will be of no help. The LibDems? Can't be trusted, I'm afraid. They screwed it up massively in 2010.

A Labour landslide will be fine, the membership then need to wind up the pressure for a switch to PR to ensure the tories never again get a majority.
 
ks.234 said:
And as we have seen in a few posts, that perception will persist despite evidence.
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I just googled the Green party. Never heard of their 2 leaders, but just having 2 leaders is a joke on its own.

I wish they were credible.

Am I even looking at the official party webpage or is it a joke?
https://vote.greenparty.org.uk/

Honestly not being 'funny' or argumentative, I just see them as a nothing party. What is the appeal?
 
Brian said:
I just googled the Green party. Never heard of their 2 leaders, but just having 2 leaders is a joke on its own.

I wish they were credible.

Am I even looking at the official party webpage or is it a joke?
https://vote.greenparty.org.uk/

Honestly not being 'funny' or argumentative, I just see them as a nothing party. What is the appeal?
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They’re the only party with a credible economic plan
 
sean99 said:
Good post. I'd add to the above utterly rotten media (tabloids, plus the likes of the Torygraph), who deliberately misinform the electorate to benefit a very few oligarch types.
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At the heart of that misinformation are the dictums that tax funds spending, the national debt has to be paid by our children and grandchildren, and the economy is like a household.
 
Colin L said:
I'm quietly optimistic that if the Tories lose by a huge margin (as currently seems likely), highly factionalised as they are, they will struggle to bring the party back together.
The right-wing nutter tendency - ERG / UKIP / Reform UK will hopefully splinter the party and leave them unable to form a majority government ever again. One can only hope.
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Only worry being they're good at purging. This current bunch of extremists managed to quickly purge out any old guard/moderate Tories, if they get battered at the next GE what are the chances that some shining light of modern Toryism purges all these nutters and reinstalls a semi credible Tory party?

Labour would really need to get their shit together to challenge that, considering they couldn't even topple the mighty Theresa May with a prevailing wind.
 
ks.234 said:
Lots of detail posted upthread
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No, there is some, but not much actual detail, most of it is a wish list and is virtually meaningless. They will be demanded by the media and the electorate to explain how their wish list will be funded. Also, it was last amended in June 2019, it has little value apart from laying out a dream.

Corbyn was slaughtered just for talking about decent broadband. While some of the Green ‘ideal’ looks nice they will go nowhere with it.

Your link I just read...
Policy...The Green Party
 
Brian said:
No, there is some, but not much actual detail, most of it is a wish list and is virtually meaningless. They will be demanded by the media and the electorate to explain how their wish list will be funded. Also, it was last amended in June 2019, it has little value apart from laying out a dream.

Corbyn was slaughtered just for talking about decent broadband. While some of the Green ‘ideal’ looks nice they will go nowhere with it.

Your link I just read...
Policy...The Green Party
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That is answered and in some detail. Unlike Labour.
 
Sue Pertwee-Tyr said:
Thanks ks.234, probably fairer to say that the Greens' other policies are not widely publicised.

Also, while I'm all in favour of the UBI, and a sustainable economy, there's not much detail on how this would be brought about - admittedly on a quick skim.
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There is a lot in the section on the economy, most notably, progressive taxation.
 
ks.234 said:
That is answered and in some detail. Unlike Labour.
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This is nothing to do with Labour, we’re talking just now about the Green party.

I don’t see much detail at the link.

I’m 64 and for much of my life the country has been pretty much ravaged by the tories. The best period was without doubt under the (despised) Blair govt. I would like to see the removal of the tories from govt, hopefully never to return before my own demise. Vote for whichever party you want to vote for but keep in mind if you want rid of the tories you’re not likely to do it by supporting the Green party. The Green party will go nowhere under FPTP. Step 1 is removing the tories. There is no room for idealism at the next GE, it is vital the tories are beaten this time.
 
Brian said:
Given what nationalism is I don't think the electorate in the rest of the UK will take Scotland into account when deciding how to vote in a UK GE.
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I'd agree. However having none of the seats in Scotland be Tory, and instead almost all SNP would help a Labour win to have a big majority for changing the Westminster system, etc. Current polling (cf the NS reference) shows that the Tories will be gone in Scotland if voting is as currently polled. SNP would take almost all the seats.

Chances are that the Tory 'support' will fall even more as they make a guddle of the next year or two.
 
Brian said:
I just googled the Green party. Never heard of their 2 leaders, but just having 2 leaders is a joke on its own.

I wish they were credible.

Honestly not being 'funny' or argumentative
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Must admit I did LOL at your comment, though. So you made a funny crack unknowingly. :)

They may be more "credible" for people interested in policies and what they would do rather than shiny surface details like having co-leaders. And the stark reality is that the biggest issue is Climate Change which we all have to deal with before it deals with us. It may be a 'long term' issue, but one we need to get on with dealing with ASAP as it already is rolling with growing momentum and consequences.
 
Brian said:
This is nothing to do with Labour, we’re talking just now about the Green party.

I don’t see much detail at the link.

I’m 64 and for much of my life the country has been pretty much ravaged by the tories. The best period was without doubt under the (despised) Blair govt. I would like to see the removal of the tories from govt, hopefully never to return before my own demise. Vote for whichever party you want to vote for but keep in mind if you want rid of the tories you’re not likely to do it by supporting the Green party. The Green party will go nowhere under FPTP. Step 1 is removing the tories. There is no room for idealism at the next GE, it is vital the tories are beaten this time.
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Rich coming from a brexit voting tory enabler.
 
Jim Audiomisc said:
I'd agree. However having none of the seats in Scotland be Tory, and instead almost all SNP would help a Labour win to have a big majority for changing the Westminster system, etc. Current polling (cf the NS reference) shows that the Tories will be gone in Scotland if voting is as currently polled. SNP would take almost all the seats.

Chances are that the Tory 'support' will fall even more as they make a guddle of the next year or two.
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The nationalists can’t help Labour and is not interested in helping Labour. It’s a single issue party. The 40 Labour seats lost to nationalism in 2015 matter. I know nationalists prefer to ignore that, but it’s what it is.

Why are you interested in what Labour may do with the Westminster system given your wish to break up the UK? What makes you think any party would change a system that has put them into Govt? I’ve seen no clamour from nationalists in Scotland to get rid of FPTP in a UK election and it’s obvious why. If Labour do win the next GE and switch the system to PR it will bring an immediate benefit by allowing a proper voice to the majority in Scotland who do not support nationalism. Bring it on...
 
Brian said:
The nationalists can’t help Labour and is not interested in helping Labour. It’s a single issue party. The 40 Labour seats lost to nationalism in 2015 matter. I know nationalists prefer to ignore that, but it’s what it is.

Why are you interested in what Labour may do with the Westminster system given your wish to break up the UK?
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Do you live in Scotland and/or follow the reports in the Scottish media? My impression from your assertions is that you don't as you seem unware of quite a lot about what has been happening here.

Yes, The SNP has one central 'issue'... supported by the way Westminster (Tories in particular) treat Scotland. But in Government they also have put into practice many other policies - changes in housing provision, land reforms, added welfare benefits, shifting the income tax take profile versus income in ways that are somewhat different to what either the Tories or LP have done or say they will do. i.e. more radical and people-centric than Westminster parties.

I don't particularly wish to "break up the UK". But I do want the kinds of changes that the SNP and Greens propose - and enact as far as 'allowed' thus far by devolution. I'd also want to be back in the EU if possible. *if* Westminster was to offer that I'd be happy to have Scotland remain in the UK. But without the changes I want, if Scots Independence brings many of those changes, then I'd choose to have the independence to get them.

Much of that won't be apparent in the media that goes out across the rUK because they usually only bother with the shallow top-layer differences beyond Westminster and SE England, or barnies like those wrt NI. These show the LP that things they are frightened to mention for fear of the Daily Maul *can* be delivered and benefit people generally. But at present, limited by what devolution allows.

FWIW I lived the first half of my Life in London. Then the second in Scotland. I certainly miss some things from London. But don't regret the move. Things are different here.
 
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