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Alernatives to Labour

Jim Audiomisc said:
Do you live in Scotland and/or follow the reports in the Scottish media? My impression from your assertions is that you don't as you seem unware of quite a lot about what has been happening here.

Yes, The SNP has one central 'issue'... supported by the way Westminster (Tories in particular) treat Scotland. But in Government they also have put into practice many other policies - changes in housing provision, land reforms, added welfare benefits, shifting the income tax take profile versus income in ways that are somewhat different to what either the Tories or LP have done or say they will do. i.e. more radical and people-centric than Westminster parties.

I don't particularly wish to "break up the UK". But I do want the kinds of changes that the SNP and Greens propose - and enact as far as 'allowed' thus far by devolution. I'd also want to be back in the EU if possible. *if* Westminster was to offer that I'd be happy to have Scotland remain in the UK. But without the changes I want, if Scots Independence brings many of those changes, then I'd choose to have the independence to get them.

Much of that won't be apparent in the media that goes out across the rUK because they usually only bother with the shallow top-layer differences beyond Westminster and SE England, or barnies like those wrt NI. These show the LP that things they are frightened to mention for fear of the Daily Maul *can* be delivered and benefit people generally. But at present, limited by what devolution allows.

FWIW I lived the first half of my Life in London. Then the second in Scotland. I certainly miss some things from London. But don't regret the move. Things are different here.
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I’m aware of this, I have friends in Scotland, Scots friends here in England, but also because I take a genuine interest despite the derision from nationalists here.

You’ve asked me before if I live in Scotland and I already replied, perhaps you missed it or perhaps you didn’t. I have no idea how authentic you are. I’ve lived in Scotland for periods of my life but I don’t now. I’m looking to move back in 2024, it will depend upon some specific family circumstances but it is my hope. Why are you asking the same thing again unless what you’re really suggesting is my opinion is to be dismissed because you know I don’t live in Scotland? e.g. I can’t possibly have a clue because I don’t live there... That would be an interesting pov if applied to other threads on pfm, for example, the brexit thread among others where we see plenty of opinion about ‘Englanders’ and not all from people who live here.

Regards the SNP. Sturgeon has been banging on about independence even during covid and during the cost of living crisis that affects the UK and beyond. It is a single issue party. Those who disagree with that description tend to be SNP supporters or other (nationalist) sympathisers.
 
Brian said:
Regards the SNP. Sturgeon has been banging on about independence even during covid and during the cost of living crisis that affects the UK and beyond. It is a single issue party. Those who disagree with that description tend to be SNP supporters or other (nationalist) sympathisers.
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As she should. The ‘cost of living crisis’ etc has a very deep root in Brexit, which was forced on Scotland by a right-wing and xenophobic England. They did not vote for that shit and the desire for independence in order to rejoin a far larger and more significant body of nations is entirely understandable. Obviously Labour sat on the fence throughout. Because Labour.
 
Tony L said:
As she should. The ‘cost of living crisis’ etc has a very deep root in Brexit, which was forced on Scotland by a right-wing and xenophobic England. They did not vote for that shit and the desire for independence in order to rejoin a far larger and more significant body of nations is entirely understandable. Obviously Labour sat on the fence throughout. Because Labour.
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I hope your talking about the Tory party not England in general.
 
MUTTY1 said:
I hope your talking about the Tory party not England in general.
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England voted for Brexit. England voted for the Tory Party. Obviously I factor FPTP in the latter, the system is designed to return a Tory elite to power, but I do view England as certainly the most right-wing part of the UK.
 
I honestly think that if you are looking for alternatives to Labour then its a vote to let the Tory's back in
England need to keep Scotland .. they cannot manage without them ..
 
Tony L said:
England voted for Brexit. England voted for the Tory Party.
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This is the reality of the situation. Scotland hasnt elected a Tory majority since less than a decade after the conclusion of WW2! They have a tiny number of Scottish MPs left and are on course for total removal at the next GE. We have no control over the large numbers of Labour voters in England that flocked to Johnson’s frankly racist, anti-EU Tory Party in 2019. That respectfully is **** all to do with us.

We can see a way out from under the debased, corrupt Westminster Parliament and I sincerely hope we take it. I’m afraid the risk of a Tory return is too much to accept. Maximum devolution is no longer a viable option- we would still be subject to the whims of an appalling Home Secretary and FCO treating our European allies as if they were enemies.
 
Well the Tories had 18 years in their last stint, I was pretty sure people were divided about them as they are with the current lot who are 13 years in ...

And surely an alternative to Labour simply means another left of central party, with a few variations of policy that ultimately leads to the same outcome ...

Then there is the significant challenge of foreign policy or even if the next govt has a true understanding the UK's position on the world stage where the BoP has shifted somewhat towards the East ... any hopes of an economic recovery is reliant on this, let alone growth to faciliate all the domestic promises made by Tory or Labour.

I just can't shake off the suspicion that outright complacency across the political pool & the British nobility has made things more difficult than it already would be ... the intellects and forward thinking candidates have either buggered off into global business/commerce, all that was left in the past 15 - 20 years are a rising breed of ideologists on the left, then there are the gammons who believe success merely lies in WW2 inspired pluck and vigorous fist waving ...
 
Brian said:
I’m aware of this, I have friends in Scotland, Scots friends here in England, but also because I take a genuine interest despite the derision from nationalists here.

You’ve asked me before if I live in Scotland and I already replied, perhaps you missed it or perhaps you didn’t. I have no idea how authentic you are.
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I'd forgotten. TBH PFM discussions aren't the main things on my mind at present. But if you want to know how "authentic" I am this may help...

https://jcgl.orpheusweb.co.uk/history/ups_and_downs.html

Covers my time in London and in Scotland.

FWIW my views on Scots Independence depend on my preferences for the kind of society/economy I wish to live in. Political 'parties' are just a potential means to that end. If the LP or LDs can deliver the changes I want, fine. I'm happy to stay in the UK. If they won't/can't and the SNP/Greens look like doing so via independence, that suits me. As things are, I find their policies enacted in Scotland are preferable, but more is hampered by the limits imposed from Westminster. Its the kind of society/economy that matter, not the label or the boundary pattern.

Jim
 
Tony L said:
England voted for Brexit. England voted for the Tory Party. Obviously I factor FPTP in the latter, the system is designed to return a Tory elite to power, but I do view England as certainly the most right-wing part of the UK.
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And the English electorate keep falling for the conventional econmic theories that the Tories and their mates/propagandists use to keep things as suits the wealthy, not the bulk of the people. Hence Stare-more adopting the same covering in the hope it will get him elected... potentially to then do little to improve the basic problems that cripple the UK as a society in thrall to the wealthy tax dodgers and their chumocracy.
 
Tony L said:
The FPTP electoral system is designed to marginalise smaller parties, especially those such as the Greens who appeal across all age, class and wealth demographics. The political establishment have created a myth of democracy by carving the country into what in the main are immovable Labour and Tory safe seats. Things are skewed right now due to 13 years of simply horrific Tory mismanagement and grift so the next election will likely swing hard to the Labour default position, but over the long term the system does what it is designed to do and returns a minority Tory elite to absolute power.

One can obviously use the same argument for UKIP or whatever is the overtly fascist party of the day. In one of the pre-Brexit elections the UKIP vote-share was quite large though widely distributed, certainly enough for a fair few seats under a PR system. FPTP is designed to remove anything to the right or left of the Tory party of the day. Now the Tory Party is openly Trump Republican/fascist this whole field has shifted rightwards. We will likely get a very right-wing Labour party with a huge majority next election.
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They seem to lack effective leadership, organisation/funding and mindshare. Is that entirely down to FPTP? And what of their manifesto? Is it too extreme for the country? Most voters are pro-environment (a broad church admittedly), so you would think the Greens would be making a better fist of it.
 
Jim Audiomisc said:
I'd forgotten. TBH PFM discussions aren't the main things on my mind at present. But if you want to know how "authentic" I am this may help...

https://jcgl.orpheusweb.co.uk/history/ups_and_downs.html

Covers my time in London and in Scotland.

FWIW my views on Scots Independence depend on my preferences for the kind of society/economy I wish to live in. Political 'parties' are just a potential means to that end. If the LP or LDs can deliver the changes I want, fine. I'm happy to stay in the UK. If they won't/can't and the SNP/Greens look like doing so via independence, that suits me. As things are, I find their policies enacted in Scotland are preferable, but more is hampered by the limits imposed from Westminster. Its the kind of society/economy that matter, not the label or the boundary pattern.

Jim
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Agree, good post.

Just to clarify, I wasn’t wondering how authentic you are, just wondering why you asked me something you’ve asked before that I’ve answered and also the relevance.

LMAAO at the ‘like’ you got there. What you describe is a sensible attitude definitely not echoed by other nationalists.
 
Jim Audiomisc said:
And the English electorate keep falling for the conventional econmic theories that the Tories and their mates/propagandists use to keep things as suits the wealthy, not the bulk of the people. Hence Stare-more adopting the same covering in the hope it will get him elected... potentially to then do little to improve the basic problems that cripple the UK as a society in thrall to the wealthy tax dodgers and their chumocracy.
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As far as following economic theories, I doubt there is much between ‘Stare-more’ and Sturgid.
 
Kirk said:
They seem to lack effective leadership, organisation/funding and mindshare. Is that entirely down to FPTP? And what of their manifesto? Is it too extreme for the country? Most voters are pro-environment (a broad church admittedly), so you would think the Greens would be making a better fist of it.
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The Greens have a very widely distributed vote. They exist in all demographics and I suspect most have a decent level of education. I doubt you will find a Green voter unable to articulate the (very deliberate) issues with FPTP. As such huge swathes fully understand they are disenfranchised and most who live in Tory seats will vote for whichever party has the best chance of removing the Tory.

I suspect the majority of the Green national voteshare is actually folk like me who live in Labour seats and can afford to think purely about the national voteshare statistic with a view to making a wider argument for a representative democracy. In a PR scenario I’d expect the Green voteshare to grow hugely as people would finally be able to vote on conscience and ideology, rather than be forced into a futile tactical vote for something they don’t believe in just to oppose Tory fascism or whatever.

Others will feel so disenfranchised they just stay home. A perfectly understandable response IMO. In most cases voting in the UK is an insult to one’s intelligence. The system is fundamentally crooked, participating only legitimises the corruption. I only turn out because I am trying to make a larger argument for PR so I want my vote counted on the national stats. I fully understand I can change nothing beyond that. The only votes in my life that have resulted in actual representation have been in the EU elections - I got both a Green and a LD MEP!
 
Not that I put much weight on polls, but are there any that give an idea of voting intention for the Greens if the system was PR? I'm not convinced a party with 2 leaders, that had only 835k votes at the 2019 GE is likely to make much of a dent even in a PR system. They don't have much other than idealism in their 2019 policy document I read the other day.

Bring it on though. PR is a step forward.
 
My second choice, if I could have a second choice like under the Alternative Vote method which I voted for in 2012ish, would go to the Green Party because when I was walking the dog earlier at about 4 pm I couldn't believe the amount of traffic caused by the school run and I came to the conclusion that the situation is worse than ever because the major political parties are not taking the environmental challenges seriously.
 
Spraggons Den said:
My second choice, if I could have a second choice like under the Alternative Vote method which I voted for in 2012ish, would go to the Green Party because when I was walking the dog earlier at about 4 pm I couldn't believe the amount of traffic caused by the school run and I came to the conclusion that the situation is worse than ever because the major political parties are not taking the environmental challenges seriously.
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According to wiki the Greens got 1.3% of the constituency votes in the last Scottish Parliament elections and 8.1% in the regional lists vote, so I think they did get a lot of people's 2nd vote (I know a lot of people that voted that way). I suspect they might do better next time as well, as they've been quite constructive as part of the cooperation agreement with the SNP.
 
Dave***t said:
A colleague linked me to an article which pointed out this definition in Wikipedia. The last sentence in particular rang true:

Guided democracy, also called managed democracy,[1] is a formally democratic governmentthat functions as a de facto authoritarian governmentor in some cases, as an autocratic government. Such hybrid regimes are legitimized by elections that are free and fair, but do not change the state's policies, motives, and goals.[2]
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Throw into that heady mix an unelected executive and a politically motivated supreme court and you have, as if by magic, the EU!
 
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