Alernatives to Labour

[droodzilla]

I edited it to "lazyness" while you were quoting it. So lazyness it is.

Really? Forgotten Blair/Brown? Are they too right wing neoliberals in your mind?

If Corbyn is the only alternative, God help us all. That really is no alternative. Also, where do I dismiss the Green alternative? A quote would be good, and let's just be clear that criticising someone's ability to communicate is hardly dismissal.

Blair - 100% yes

Brown - bit more complicated

Watch the BBC's Blair/Brown doco, for more info.

The alternative to Corbyn was supposed to be Starmer with Corbyn-lite policies.

Instead: more austerity, more racism, and greater private sector involvement in the NHS.

Also, Starmer is a cowardly, authoritarian prick.

 

[Jim Audiomisc]

Not really
https://policy.greenparty.org.uk/home/long-term-goals/ec.html

That's quite a useful page for showing the scope of GP policy and their rejection of "ye olde" fantasy neo-lib 'economics'. etc. But lacks the impact of the broadcast I think.

 

[Jim Audiomisc]

Thanks ks.234, probably fairer to say that the Greens' other policies are not widely publicised.
.

Because most of the 'big' media's owners/controllers don't want people to know. Easier to dismiss them by avoiding letting people come to their their own *informed* decisions...

 

[Colin L]

I'm quietly optimistic that if the Tories lose by a huge margin (as currently seems likely), highly factionalised as they are, they will struggle to bring the party back together.
The right-wing nutter tendency - ERG / UKIP / Reform UK will hopefully splinter the party and leave them unable to form a majority government ever again. One can only hope.

 

[Jim Audiomisc]

It may have been, but as long as this perception remains the Greens will go nowhere. PFM is a reasonably well informed group, and if a few people here believe the Greens to be a bunch of sandal wearing tree huggers who like to cycle to yogurt knitting classes in a yurt then you can bet that this is reflected elsewhere.

Yes. It is the image that the bulk of the media present. Alas, arguing dry policy details tends not to attract people into listening. Hence, I think, the impact of the PBB I referenced. Which, of course, will still be skipped over by many who just switch channel or make a cup of coffee instead. But it does at least have some chance of grabbing attention if someone watches the start of the PBB.

 

[Jim Audiomisc]

If they can't even get bin collection right for a small seaside area, or get a boiler fixed, it doesn't bode well for any ability to step up to the challenge of running a whole country.

https://www.letsrecycle.com/news/brighton-inhouse-misses-collection-targets/
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-sussex-64332332

Erm, the problems of 'local government' are all too often down to the limits and controls imposed upon them by Westminster. They aren't 'allowed' to do much to fix the lack of funding, investment, etc. e.g. Weren't enabled to replace the social housing 'lost' by 'right-to-buy'. Nor to go on controlling bus provision in terms of the routes to be covered, etc. i.e. to suit the *people* who needed the services rather than private profit. ('People' here also includes ones like local employers who benefit if, say, local transport, makes it easier and cheaper for their employees to get between work and home, and to local shops, etc.)

 

[Jim Audiomisc]

You can’t communicate to people who put their fingers in their ears and won’t listen.

Jeremy Corbyn did not win the argument, but that does not mean he was wrong. It was just that people preferred to believe the comfortable lies rather than listen to the arguments.

Indeed. Many didn't listen to their *actual* plans/policy but instead what they were fed by newspapers, etc, that was, erm, not quite accurate or impartially explaned.

 

[Ponty]

I'm quietly optimistic that if the Tories lose by a huge margin (as currently seems likely), highly factionalised as they are, they will struggle to bring the party back together.
The right-wing nutter tendency - ERG / UKIP / Reform UK will hopefully splinter the party and leave them unable to form a majority government ever again. One can only hope.

I won’t be voting conservative but reckon it’ll be closer than you think. The state of the country, which will be blamed on covid and Russia, and a ‘Labour’s Tax Bombshell’ and national defence ad campaign will have many not being able to vote labour when they’re actually looking at the ballot paper.

 

[Jim Audiomisc]

The Scottish nationalists will scupper that plan.

I doubt that. The SNP and Greens would be happy to gain more Westminster seats and use them to change how Westminster is elected and operates. And as things stand they'd do nicely in Scots constituencies I think. There was a recent analysis 'map' of this in New Statesbloke IIRC.

 

[Ponty]

I doubt that. The SNP and Greens would be happy to gain more Westminster seats and use them to change how Westminster is elected and operates. And as things stand they'd do nicely in Scots constituencies I think. There was a recent analysis 'map' of this in New Statesbloke IIRC.

If the SNP smash it at the next GE, surely independence is pretty likely so they won’t have anything to do with Westminster.

 

[Jim Audiomisc]

If the SNP smash it at the next GE, surely independence is pretty likely so they won’t have anything to do with Westminster.

Yes, Independence would be their main effort. But they'd also benefit from an rUK that was more genuinely democratic and not Tory-ridden... which would in itself make independence easier I suspect. Happier neighbours. It would also probably be supported by Greens in co-operation. The snag may be an unwilling set of LP and LDs. But at least this would expose their failings.

 

[Ponty]

Yes, Independence would be their main effort. But they'd also benefit from an rUK that was more genuinely democratic and not Tory-ridden... which would in itself make independence easier I suspect. Happier neighbours. It would also probably be supported by Greens in co-operation. The snag may be an unwilling set of LP and LDs. But at least this would expose their failings.

Maybe. I just get the feeling that if Scot independence is on the cards, England will be more inclined to vote Tory. Time will tell!

 

[ks.234]

That's quite a useful page for showing the scope of GP policy and their rejection of "ye olde" fantasy neo-lib 'economics'. etc. But lacks the impact of the broadcast I think.

Agreed. Only posted in response to the accusation that the Greens don’t have any policies. They do, lots

 

[Brian]

I doubt that. The SNP and Greens would be happy to gain more Westminster seats and use them to change how Westminster is elected and operates. And as things stand they'd do nicely in Scots constituencies I think. There was a recent analysis 'map' of this in New Statesbloke IIRC.

Yes, Independence would be their main effort. But they'd also benefit from an rUK that was more genuinely democratic and not Tory-ridden... which would in itself make independence easier I suspect. Happier neighbours. It would also probably be supported by Greens in co-operation. The snag may be an unwilling set of LP and LDs. But at least this would expose their failings.

Can barely believe these two posts.

Reality is nationalists are helping the tories to a majority over Labour.

Given what nationalism is I don't think the electorate in the rest of the UK will take Scotland into account when deciding how to vote in a UK GE.

 

[Euan]

So, you think that the 45% of Scots that voted SNP at the last election, who didn't want a Tory or a Labour government, should vote Labour just so that you get the party that you want in power?

 

[Ponty]

Given what nationalism is I don't think the electorate in the rest of the UK will take Scotland into account when deciding how to vote in a UK GE.

We’ll see. I sense it would be like Brexit. Many Europeans wanted to make life difficult for the UK. The Tory’s are more likely to give the SNP a rough ride over it than labour IMHO.

 

[Brian]

So, you think that the 45% of Scots that voted SNP at the last election, who didn't want a Tory or a Labour government, should vote Labour just so that you get the party that you want in power?

Do I?

There I really was thinking people can vote for whichever party they like in the UK. I even said that again and for the umpteenth time just a couple of days ago. I also suggested people voting in a GE to take a seat from Labour should acknowledge they are making it more difficult for Labour to remove the tories from UK govt, and should perhaps consider that fact before embarking upon the daily whinge about the UK.

What about the 55% who didn’t vote SNP? Do you give a jot about them and their wishes?

Oh, and it’s not that I want Labour in govt, it’s that I want the tories replaced and Labour is the only realistic chance of that happening.

 

[Sue Pertwee-Tyr]

Agreed. Only posted in response to the accusation that the Greens don’t have any policies. They do, lots

I think the problem, electorally, is not so much that they don’t have policies, but that they are generally perceived to be a one trick pony.

 

[Sue Pertwee-Tyr]

Oh, and it’s not that I want Labour in govt, it’s that I want the tories replaced and Labour is the only realistic chance of that happening.

There is, though, a possible upside to a strong SNP showing in Scotland (aside from the fact that their leader at Westminster has been pretty effective at hitting the Tories in PMQ). It’s this:

current polling has Labour on the landslide to end all landslides. Tories annihilated. I’m not at all convinced that, annihilation of Tories excepted, such a result is remotely desirable - Labour unfettered might pander to the worst of its right wing tendencies. So if there’s a strong SNP presence, that’ll temper that a bit, at least, by providing at least some form of opposition, perhaps with LibDems if they can find their, you know, actual Liberal hearts.

 

[KrisW]

The UK system punishes any party with less than 30% vote share (not my opinion, it’s an inherent property of FPTP electoral systems over time). The classic example is UKIP: they won more than 12% of the votes cast in the 2015 general election.. how many seats do you reckon that’s worth in a democracy with a 650-seat parliament?

The answer, whatever your political opinions, should not be “one”, which was the exact number they ended up with.

That is the fundamental reason why people won’t vote for the Green Party in the UK: they know that there’s no way the party could ever secure a seat based on its vote share, so people who would otherwise vote Green have to vote tactically, and choose the least shit option out of the two candidates who ever have a chance in a typical UK parliamentary election.

Government by 650 “least shit option” candidates is why the country is such a basket-case.

A Labour landslide would remove any impetus from within that party to embark on electoral reform, and in five or ten years, you’d be back in the same mess.. (That said, when Labour got a landslide in 1997, they still put through policies that were better for the country, despite directly hurting Labour’s electoral chances: Scottish devolution being the big one)