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A thread for discussing the science behind power cables and their potential influence on amplifiers

Why would they need 'power conditioners and a plug top filter' if the 'mains cables' themselves supposedly make the difference.

Products Tested:
  • 3 Shunyata Research Hydra six-outlet power conditioners
  • Shunyata Research Venom power cords
  • Shunyata Research Venom Defender plug-top filter

Power conditioners have science to back up their effects.
 
Sue Pertwee-Tyr said:
Not sure if you're joking or if you've misunderstood.

Post #788 answers a question which is frequently asked in threads like this: 'if mains cables make such a difference, why don't they use them in critical applications, like medical equipment?'. The answer, it seems, is that somebody has, and it made a positive difference.
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One operating theatre with an audiophile surgeon. They set up an 'imaging' company and have one single example. It's nothing more than PR to address the 'critical applications' elephant.I'd hazard the guess that most hospital supplies and indeed tech kit is well designed and immune to dirty mains. If the outcomes are as significant as you are keen to latch on to then we should expect to see it in the Lancet pretty soon.....We've already seen that when these conditioner filters are taken apart they look to contain pretty much mundane and commonly understood RF filters etc-the only difference is the BS and the crazy price.
 
In the case of the Minneapolis hospital the linked report is long on general rhetoric but short on technical detail. The report repeatedly mentions shielded cables and that a lower noise floor was measured - yes, so what? Shielding of cables is nothing new and you can buy shielded mains cable (braid, foil, or both) for a few pounds a metre! When I wrote earlier “still no actual science then” I was rather flippantly referring to to the original hypothesis of the thread. So far we have unearthed two bits of actual cable science, 1/ thicker cable is better at carrying higher current than thinner, and 2/ shielding a cable can impact on the noise floor (in an absolute sense). Neither of these are, in any way, new pieces of information and neither gives us any insight into why elaborate cable architectures or special boxes/devices may be needed to be incorporated into such cables.
 
Sue Pertwee-Tyr said:
Not sure if you're joking or if you've misunderstood.

Post #788 answers a question which is frequently asked in threads like this: 'if mains cables make such a difference, why don't they use them in critical applications, like medical equipment?'. The answer, it seems, is that somebody has, and it made a positive difference.
Click to expand...
The simple answer is "no they haven't". The review is about the Denali hydra unit which has dedicated mains filters on each outlet, plus the context in which the medical application was set up included additional plug top filters and other components. Yes it was tied together with Shunyata power cables, but there is no evidence of what their particular contribution was.
 
Sue Pertwee-Tyr said:
Not sure if you're joking or if you've misunderstood.

Post #788 answers a question which is frequently asked in threads like this: 'if mains cables make such a difference, why don't they use them in critical applications, like medical equipment?'. The answer, it seems, is that somebody has, and it made a positive difference.
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Even his wife noticed. And she was in the kitchen:D
Chris
 
radamel said:
Why do you say that?
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If the ability of the medic to do their job safely and correctly is significantly degraded by the performance of medical equipment being made poorer by the use of a standard mains cable, I would as an engineer regard that as a serious problem in the design or manufacture. The equipment may not be 'fit for purpose' - which is serious in a medical context.

I'd certainly expect the designer/maker of such kit to be well aware of the need to signal condition satisfactorily the mains input as well as signal inputs and outputs. In the USA this wouldn't just be a matter of ethics, but the risk of lawsuits by any damaged party or their relatives.
 
cooky1257 said:
; https://shunyata.com/2018/08/02/hi-fi-alan-sircom-reviews-the-denali-6000-t-uk/

"A few years ago, one of Shunyata Research’s clients was so impressed by what his Hydra Triton/Typhon power distribution box did to his audio system, he wondered if it could help in his day job. So, he brought the Shunyata product to work... and plugged it into the medical imaging device he used in his cardiology surgery. The resultant drop in noise floor he experienced at home also happened at the operating table; he could use the imaging products with greater definition, and – as a direct result – more operations had a successful outcome (given this is a cardiologist searching for vital electrical impulses in the heart itself, the opposite to ‘a successful outcome’ is pretty bleak). When this story filtered back (pun intended) to Shunyata’s boss Caelin Gabriel, he created a division of the company – Clear Image Scientific®"
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Pure comedy. No science, an anecdote.
 
Good to see the ideas being bandied about.

Me I’m listening to Gratefull Dead, Dozin at the Knick Vol1 Goin to Hell in a Bucket when this popped up. The last thing on my mind was the effect of mains cables, the music more than absorbs me, love it.
 
S-Man said:
But the music's not quite absorbing enough to stop you looking and posting on PFM :)
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One has to be totally absorbed when listening, then one can hear a power lead effect?
I do more than one thing at a time, multitasking. View TV and eat. At least I am enjoying the ride.;)
 
It occurs to me that recently I've been quite enjoying using headphones with a DAP. Maybe it's because it avoids problems with mains leads. :)
 
misterdog said:
End of thread then.
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AndyU said:
Please just delete the thread. Beg for it to be locked. It will achieve absolutely nothing.
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Just spotted this thread... at 800+ posts it's kept a number of people informed/entertained/busy!

I haven't read all of those but... I use LAT AC-2 power cables throughout because they are fully screened and reassuringly robust. I use mainly Furutech plugs and IEC's for their superb engineering and robustness, but have never been convinced by any arguments about exotic metals; silver being the best conductor possibly makes an argument for its use in plugs etc but I really can't see how it could benefit an amplifier sonically.

I haven't done any sort of scientifically valid comparisons with kettle leads but was, and remain, of the opinion that once you have screening in place other aspects of the cable's structure are unlikely to make a huge if any difference. I'd be happy to see evidence to the contrary.
 
sq225917 said:
The best bit for me was the fact he was dressed in all off-white and his nibs in all black and theyd swoop into view depending on whether they were trying to elicit positive or negative reactions, it was real pantomime.
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You've tried this line before, you numpty.
 
Paul Mc said:
You've tried this line before, you numpty.
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When you say this do you mean that he has said it before, or that he has said it before and he was lying, or that he was lying before and he is lying now?

( And why do you always have to be abusive? )
 
Joe, Paul is a supporter of Music Works and the dealer The Audioworks where Larry, the dancing chap in white, works. (nothing wrong with that) and Si’s anecdote is about a demo they presented. A most unfortunate confluence but very funny (shouting at the public is never a good idea ;)).

Edit: I don’t think Paul is being particularly aggressive or rude, if I were in the same position I would likely be tired of hearing this story again too - unfortunately, it is entirely true. Anyway, life goes on and everyone makes mistakes.
 
What I find frustrating about this subject of mains cables is that there is so little scientific evidence, or even theory, that doesn’t rely on quantum abstracts etc. Personally, I’m not against the idea that mains cables make a difference in a subjective sense but wrapping products up in pseudo-scientific terminology doesn’t instil confidence. I’m also entirely on board with subjective assessment but, at the same time, I’m not blind (get it ;)) to potential pitfalls and limitations. A few years ago I attended a show (could have been Whitlebury) where Alan Sircom hosted a fantastic demo. The idea was to show people how easily their opinion could be swayed by the demonstrator (he actually said this to everyone at the start). He then proceeded to A/B demo two interconnects to us. The first he presented with faint praise and read a newspaper whilst it was being used (feigning disinterest). The second interconnect he enthused about and when it was in use he tapped his feet along with the music and made aproving eye contact with the audience (he also slightly increased the volume). After the, obviously rigged, demo he asked for a show of hands and most of the room enthusiastically endorsed the second interconnect ..... he then revealed that both demos were using the same interconnect and he hadn’t actually changed anything other than slightly raising the volume and telling people the second interconnect was the better of the two!
 
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