advertisement


A thread for discussing the science behind power cables and their potential influence on amplifiers

westsea said:
… As a practicing engineer or scientist we choose boundaries, in many instances make a working hypothosis, followed by a repeatable proof. The choice to work within known science is valid, unless proven otherwise. So far in this thread I have not seen proof of mains cables having an impact on amplifier performance, lots of theories and speculation, but no repeatable proofs. Therefore mains cables do not impact on amplifier performance. Richard Feynman said of theories that if there is a circumsance encompassed by the theory that does not fit, then the theory is wrong
One of your statements is almost correct, there is no science .....beyond that which is currently known and practiced
Click to expand...
Exactly.

The science behind how mains interference could influence sound has been discussed here. But it is clearly very hit-or-miss in its potential impact. To have any impact it requires equipment to have less than good practice in its design and engineering.

It's the only relevant science I think I have seen in this thread and it isn't convincing as having an audible impact on well-engineered kit. Even after decades of hifi engineering in the industry. This is suggestive if not conclusive that if any other mechanisms exist they are sufficiently subtle that nobody thinks them worthy of raising.

So it seems sensible to adopt the working hypothesis that "mains cables do not have an impact on amplifier performance" and ask for any more scientific ideas for how to falsify it. Are there any more candidates?
 
Paul Mc said:
And yet many people, including designers, observe differences and can routinely demonstrate improvements.
Click to expand...
I don't preclude that, having spent a good part of my working life as a designer, the key is in the demonstration of the improvement, which is the bedrock of much engineering development. Having 'proofs' is an essential part of the process. The rigor of science is essential where the consequences of failure is high. The prime objective of a mains cable is that it is safe, not necessarily a given.
PS have just looked up scientific demonsration on wiki...... enlightening
 
Paul Mc said:
And yet many people, including designers, observe differences and can routinely demonstrate improvements.
Click to expand...
Funny I've been to a shit load of shows, big and small have never seen anyone demonstrate improvements, not even differences...
 
Whaleblue said:
OK, please restrict this discussion to the science and engineering that supports why a power cable can or cannot affect the output of an amplifier.
Click to expand...

May help if I remind people of what the OP wrote to go along with the thread's title, so I've quoted it above. :)

My personal view, though, is as follows:

I spent years developing amplifiers, etc. Some of them for audio use. Others for use in ultra-high precision measurements of signals far fainter than you get from even an MC cart. My reaction would have been that if a change of mains cable noticable affected the output I'd concentrate on the *amp* not the mains cable unless there was a prettly blatent flaw with one of the cables, or I was doing something daft to allow a loop or similar.

I'm interested in the mains cable ideas just as I am in those for interconnects, etc. For the simple reason that if some of these ideas/reports are correct, they might show up some 'new physics'. That's why I spent a lot of time on a few reports that gave technical details. (Despite colleagues when I worked in a Physics Dept thinking I was bonkers to 'waste my time' on it.) But sadly, as detailed on my various webpages, all the radical new 'theories' presented in such cases I investigated in detail turned to dust. Generally either a flaw in the measurement system or analysis. In some cases they simply showed ignorance of basic physics. So I've not found any 'new physics' as yet.
 
Sue Pertwee-Tyr said:
You’re a hypocrite because you criticised me for not being on topic, specifically for not discussing the effect mains leads have on amplifiers.

Just have a read through most (if not all) your posts on this thread, and count up how many of those actually contribute to the thread in those terms.
Click to expand...

Not true. Most of them have been conversing with that particular beleiver who makes claims and implications about and around the topic, which he can't back up, dodges legitimate questions and clearly knows nothing about the subject. He is just of faith. I have just been trying to get him put up or shut up to be honest.

So no hypocrysy at all. The problem is no beleivers appear to have anything factual to discuss on the subject. Which to me speaks volumes.

So Sue, can you stop making lots of empty noise and contribute if you have something to contribute?
 
Foxman50 said:
If you read my comments i think it is quite clear but i will say again, but it would help if you read what im saying and not apply what you want it to say.

I had been talking about the fact that we do not fully understand electrickery, therfore to make statements such as mains cables cannot possibly have any effect on an amplifiers sound i find hard to take factually. To make this claim you need to understand something fully, which we do not. Now the fact that we do not understand it is not something new, its not a revelation is is quite accepted as fact. As ive said previously its up to you if you want to accept this or not.

I happened to read the comment i posted and thought how apt as he has made the same statement. Again whether you wish to accept this as fact is up to you but im afraid fact it remains. It is of little relevance if he is an, to use your term, expert in this field or not, we can all state facts outside our own fields.

Im not, for your gratification, going to start looking up and realing off names for you to look up on, just read up on what we do and don't know, I don't feel the individuals are relevant because as i understand it it is not a contentious fact, but clearly one that is not by yourself it would seem.

Having said all this im not saying mains cables do make a difference, even though in my experience i feel they can. But im happy to be proved wrong.

Hopefully that has answered your questions, but i have a feeling you will respond with something ive not actually written:(
Click to expand...

You have evaded all the questions again. Waffling on instead.

As has been pointed out multiple times., no you don't need to know everything about a subject to successfully engineer solutions. Every single engineering discipline has further knowledge to discover, that does not mean that our current abilities are somehow inadequate to acheive the objective. Influence free mains cable, about 10 quid from Maplin.

You still don't seem to understand that first of all you need to demonstrate that mains cables are making an audible difference before you start speculating that there is some magic out there that we don't understand to create an audible effect.
 
Foxman50 said:
But there is no science, thats the point.
Click to expand...
What are you talking about? You think there is no science and engineering understanding behind cables?

A few posts back you even contradicted this by suggesting we should consult experts in the field, none of which you were prepared to name. Or were these experts not actually technical experts? Are they mediums or perhaps astrologists? Oh sorry, they are expensive mains cable manufacturers aren't they. How silly of me.

So, are you trolling or are you just plain stupid?
 
Last edited:
Jim Audiomisc said:
May help if I remind people of what the OP wrote to go along with the thread's title, so I've quoted it above. :)

My personal view, though, is as follows:

I spent years developing amplifiers, etc. Some of them for audio use. Others for use in ultra-high precision measurements of signals far fainter than you get from even an MC cart. My reaction would have been that if a change of mains cable noticable affected the output I'd concentrate on the *amp* not the mains cable unless there was a prettly blatent flaw with one of the cables, or I was doing something daft to allow a loop or similar.

I'm interested in the mains cable ideas just as I am in those for interconnects, etc. For the simple reason that if some of these ideas/reports are correct, they might show up some 'new physics'. That's why I spent a lot of time on a few reports that gave technical details. (Despite colleagues when I worked in a Physics Dept thinking I was bonkers to 'waste my time' on it.) But sadly, as detailed on my various webpages, all the radical new 'theories' presented in such cases I investigated in detail turned to dust. Generally either a flaw in the measurement system or analysis. In some cases they simply showed ignorance of basic physics. So I've not found any 'new physics' as yet.
Click to expand...

For me this puts the whole shebang to bed and answers the OP. Thanks Jim A
can we put the subject onto a shelf and revisit in a couple of years or so.....like a case of wine... see if it matures well!
 
It is reassuring that at any time you can be sure to find this argument continuing somewhere on pfm. I've decided that if people who hear an improvement hear an improvement then that is fine by me. That objectively there is no actual, audible difference is fine by me too.
 
Last edited:
Paul Mc said:
I have.
Click to expand...

I know, I was in the room with you on one occasion while the audioworks staff attempted to tell us a 1.9m mains lead sounded best. Obviously they never spoke to the guys currently pedalling 1.7m as being the perfect length. They can't both be right could they.
 
sq225917 said:
I know, I was in the room with you on one occasion while the audioworks staff attempted to tell us a 1.9m mains lead sounded best. Obviously they never spoke to the guys currently pedalling 1.7m as being the perfect length. They can't both be right could they.
Click to expand...
Your recollection is wrong. Audioworks uses 1.7m cables.
 
sq225917 said:
I know, I was in the room with you on one occasion while the audioworks staff attempted to tell us a 1.9m mains lead sounded best. Obviously they never spoke to the guys currently pedalling 1.7m as being the perfect length. They can't both be right could they.
Click to expand...
We were in the same room? Presume you came along to spoil the fun.
 
sq225917 said:
I know, I was in the room with you on one occasion while the audioworks staff attempted to tell us a 1.9m mains lead sounded best. Obviously they never spoke to the guys currently pedalling 1.7m as being the perfect length. They can't both be right could they.
Click to expand...

Oh, was that the time the demonstrator shouted at our friend Dave ‘nobody in this room is interested in your opinion’? One of the funniest scenes I’ve ever witnessed :). It was 1.7m though for the cable - I remember it all started to go south when I innocently enquired what the lump was half way down the cable. I was also struck by how ambitious the suggested demo was - play the system with everything added and then demonstrate how much poorer it became as the mains leads and support stands were removed! Unfortunately it got of to a wobbly (;)) start for me because I thought the sound was distinctly average from the off ( despite the demonstrators weird abstract dancing).
 
That's strange, 'cos I'm also called Dave and had a very similar experience with the AudioWorkers.

I had the temerity to suggest to dancing man that the budget AudioWorks room next door with Sugden and budget Focals sounded very good... actually better than the Accuphase + expensive Focals used for demoing wobbly tables**

**"Wobbly table" has to be said in a Fred Dibnah accent for authentic effect.

Dancing man stopped dancing and started shouting at me along the lines of "When did you last hear live music?"
 
The best bit for me was the fact he was dressed in all off-white and his nibs in all black and theyd swoop into view depending on whether they were trying to elicit positive or negative reactions, it was real pantomime.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.


advertisement


Back
Top