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A thread for discussing the science behind power cables and their potential influence on amplifiers

Paul, it's not a line, it's a memoir.

Frankly, the best staged demo I've ever seen. Comedy gold.
 
The 'line' is accusing AW of using NLP, implied in your recent post, and explicit in your original account.
 
I’m not sure what Larry did can be classed as neuro linguistic programming (NLP) but he certainly told the listeners what their opinion should be - phrases like “well if you can’t hear that difference you don’t even deserve to own a hi-fi” leave little room for debate (and that is a verbatim quote). When the ‘good’ sound was playing Larry did jiggle around to the music (though what music he was jigging to is another question because his movements seemed to have nothing to do with the rhythm of the music playing). After each excerpt of music Larry did directly tell us what we should have heard and what our opinion should be. In all, it was very like the Alan Sircom demo I mentioned a couple of posts ago - except Alan’s was toned down compared to Larry’s and it didn’t end with Alan shouting at one of the attendees that “nobody in this room is interested in your opinion”, which is what happened in Larry’s demo.

Edit: Apparently the demonstrator in question was not called Larry but a gentleman named Steve.
 
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The accusation at the time was use of NLP. I suspect it was Steve dancing, not Larry and that the AW team had their tongue in cheek at the time. BTW I am customer at AW, not a supporter.
 
Paul Mc said:
The accusation at the time was use of NLP. I suspect it was Steve dancing, not Larry and that the AW team had their tongue in cheek at the time. BTW I am customer at AW, not a supporter.
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Indeed, I've attended these demonstrations too, and Larry (owner and proprietor of MusicWorks) is not the one behaving as described. That sounds much more like Steve who is, among other things, an amplifier designer, and who is very sympathetic to the MusicWorks approach and who used to help out with these dems. He's a bit direct, and can be perceived as a bit abrasive but is actually a lovely chap, just a bit too passionate about this stuff for his own (and MusicWorks') good at times.

His antics are routinely wheeled out as a way to discredit MusicWorks, whose demonstrations have, for at least the last 5 years or so, been significantly more low-key, yet no less effective. But it's the dancing Steve who still gets top billing. Go figure.
 
Dancing Steve is actually a rather good valve amp designer, he marketed a very nicely engineered up-spec and non-flamable variant of the TVA 10 for a while. Very expensive, arguably too expensive, but a good bit of kit for sure. The best thing in the Audio Works shop IMHO (though I do like Accuphase too)!
 
Tony L said:
Dancing Steve is actually a rather good valve amp designer, he marketed a very nicely engineered up-spec and non-flamable variant of the TVA 10 for a while. Very expensive, arguably too expensive, but a good bit of kit for sure. The best thing in the Audio Works shop IMHO (though I do like Accuphase too)!
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Yes, it's a stunning amp. If I were to go thermionic rather than SS, it's where I'd go.
 
Apologies to Larry then - he was not involved at all - apparently it was ‘dancing Steve’. It would have been a much friendlier experience if Steve had been having a bit of fun (tongue in cheek) but I’m afraid it was quite clear that he was deadly serious. In any event, this goes down in history as the most rigged and pressured demo I’ve ever encountered. The purpose of this tale isn’t to discredit MusicWorks, they did that themselves by allowing Steve to carry on in such an appaling manner. The story isn’t a fiction, it is absolutely true. In addition, I hope subsequent demos have been better because this one didn’t demonstrate anything other than the teams ability to make a very average sound come from some very expensive equipment (Spectral and Avalon) and a willingness to browbeat and bully the customer into believing their marketing!

Many years ago a friend had a pair of TVA-1s and one of them caught fire whilst he was making a cup of tea.
 
YNWOAN said:
The purpose of this tale isn’t to discredit MusicWorks, they did that themselves by allowing Steve to carry on in such an appaling manner. The story isn’t a fiction, it is absolutely true.
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So what is the purpose of the tale, then, because I'm not really getting the point?
 
It’s just a tale of what happened - if it casts the protagonists in a poor light then that is their fault. If they had behaved in a different manner the story would be different.
 
It's an anecdote. Most cable threads end up dismissing anecdote as not worth the energy in the retelling. Is this somehow different? Not least because it's something of a (now rather old) warhorse you trot out at every opportunity.

It's also mildly libellous. 'Rigged' indeed?
 
My point was that AW were accused of using NLP to con the audience. That's hinted at by YMoan when he mentions the back/white clothing. Does he stick to his story. Lo and behold it now it appears he was being bullied. Good grief, why not stick to being the site's Linn expert.
 
YNWOAN said:
... but I’m afraid it was quite clear that he was deadly serious. In any event, this goes down in history as the most rigged and pressured demo I’ve ever encountered.
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The same happened to me and a pal, probably at the same show and year, but two separate but very smiliar events.
Only one dancing Steve though.
 
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Sue Pertwee-Tyr said:
MusicWorks, whose demonstrations have, for at least the last 5 years or so, been significantly more low-key, yet no less effective.
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It's statements like this that drag me into cable debates.

Can you load up online for me the peer reviewed follow up research papers which will show me how "no less effective" their demonstrations have been than the ones where someone effectively tells you " if you can't hear the difference between these you must be deaf ! " ( I paraphrase )

Can you also tell me what methodology was used in that follow up research... what rigour was applied to it.

Or maybe people could stop posting declamatory statements of "facts" that are no such thing?

[ i will add here that I believe that there are differences to be heard between some interconnects ( and this is a POWER cable thread that has gone off message again ) but people keep using impressions as hard facts and IMO it does the whole subject a great disservice ][/QUOTE]
 
Joe, my use of the word ‘effective’ was describing the effectiveness of the demonstration as ‘measured’ by how it was received by the audience. Before you get on your high horse, best be clear if there’s a battle to fight, eh?
 
SPT and PMc (obviously you are a supporter/apologist and not 'just a customer'), I don't know why you are attempting to defend the behavior of 'Steve's' demonstration because it is entirely indefensible. No doubt he is very enthusiastic about the products, but he still performed (because it certainly was a performance) what I would call a rigged demo, full of rhetoric intended to tell the listener what their opinion should be and concluding with outright abuse. It may be an anecdote but it is a first hand one and I can bring forth three people who will swear to the accuracy; you suggestion of libel is worthless scaremongering. It's also worth pointing out that the two of you are the ones who are encouraging the repetition of the story now....
 
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