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A thread for discussing the science behind power cables and their potential influence on amplifiers

Whaleblue

Whaleblue

Southbound
OK, please restrict this discussion to the science and engineering that supports why a power cable can or cannot affect the output of an amplifier.

I choose amplifiers as the subject matter as they seem to be often, though obviously not exclusively, the kit under consideration in the various power cable discussions.

I’m genuinely interested in hearing what knowledgeable folk, be they electronics engineers, physicists, mathematicians or from other relevant disciplines.

I try to have an open mind, so look forward to being persuaded either way, should any of the above care to try to educate me (and anyone else of a similar persuasion).

I’d appreciate it if folk could step away from the personal experience/“just listen” position for the sake of the intended focus of the thread.
 
Whaleblue said:
please restrict this discussion to the science and engineering that supports why a power cable can or cannot affect the output of an amplifier.
Click to expand...

If this thread is to have any response you need to include psychology, which can have a huge influence on the output of an amplifier.
 
Perhaps we could widen the scope. Are any other electrical devices affected by their power cables? TV, cooking appliances, vacuum cleaners, grass cutters, PC/Printers. If not why only audio equipment.

WigWas were very keen on Baking perhaps the new regime has altered opinions but they used to laugh mains cable enthusiasm out the forum.
 
Great! Just what we need, another lovely cable thread!:D

As the science is so bleedin obvious and so simple to anyone who has even the slightest idea what they are talking about and has been explained by myself and others many times already I'll mainly be looking out for the LOL's:D

Interesting that when I mention to non audiophiles the ridiculous matter of thickos thinking mains cables make a difference they quite rightly laugh and can't believe anyone would be that gullible... It's intuitively obvious that they won't make a difference until people with no technical knowledge are brainwashed by other people with no technical knowledge into believing something equally as stupid as the earth being flat or lead bricks floating! At which point no amount of explanations will change their minds as they won't ever admit they've "been had" by the foomeisters.. it's the perfect "emperor's new clothes" analogy!!

What we are talking about here is the exact same circuit scenario as taking a 12V bulb and two pieces of wire and connecting them to a 12V battery so the bulb lights... it's THAT simple and basic. Yes literally. It's hard to imagine a simpler, more straightforward scenario. Only the spectacularly intellectually challenged could possibly think this was something that science can't explain and is beyond the knowledge of those who design the rest of their hi fi equipment!

So us engineers are trusted to do something like this....
2000W-Power-Amplifier-Circuit-Diagram.jpg


But this is apparently a new level of complicated that's beyond the ken of science.... according to people who admit they know nothing about electronics....

images
 
Arkless Electronics said:
So us engineers are trusted to do something like this....
2000W-Power-Amplifier-Circuit-Diagram.jpg


But this is apparently a new level of complicated that's beyond the ken of science.... according to people who admit they know nothing about electronics....
Click to expand...

<moderating>

Jez, please stop with the cyclic trolling. You do not speak for “engineers” any more than I speak for the world of computing or whatever. The simple fact is many highly successful audio designers who have a lengthy list of respected products behind them simply do not agree with you. Whatever grandiosity you may ascribe to it I’m sorry to have to point out that yours is but one opinion among a great many. The arrogance with which you continue to below it wins you few friends here and will result in moderation if you don’t tone it down a good bit. I am becoming increasingly sick of the cyclic nature of this argument. It is impacting the smooth running of the forum IMHO.
 
I've looked at the science of this in various ways over the years. Example here

http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/cables/mains/StringTheory.html

which, does indeed, show that a change of mains cable *can* alter the amount of RFI getting to your kit *IF* that kit isn't designed to deal with RFI.

I always come to the conclusion that once the cable is adequate in terms of delivering the mains power any other effects tend to be better achieved with something more specific, like a mains filter for RFI as per

http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/mains/filters1.html
and
http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/mains/filters2.html

and/or designing the kit in the first place to do a fair job of rejecting/ignoring mains RFI.

So I've always used off-the-reel mains cable from CPC, RS, etc. Filters are also cheap from such vendors. :)

But if interested in the *science* you can find various aspects considered on my websites. (The Scots Guide as well as Audiomisc.)
 
BTW My initial interest in the behaviour of current-carrying metal wires was prompted by having to design and make 'wire grid' polarisers for the 50 - 500 GHz region, not by HiFi. The people who made RF valves also had an interest in this because of the need for grids in the valves.
 
Slightly off topic, but I have a theory that all this angst over cables is actually classic displacement activity. Let's face it, some people need to keep changing stuff in case there is something better just around the corner, but they don't want to spend £5,000 on a new amp or speakers and risk regretting what they've done, so they spend £500 on cables instead. I've done it in the past and have a box full of cables to prove it. None made the slightest difference.
 
Very possibly but that energy would be better spent, and perhaps with real gains in SQ examining speaker/listener positioning and room/speaker interaction.
Keith
 
Tony L said:
<moderating>

Jez, please stop with the cyclic trolling. You do not speak for “engineers” any more than I speak for the world of computing or whatever. The simple fact is many highly successful audio designers who have a lengthy list of respected products behind them simply do not agree with you. Whatever grandiosity you may ascribe to it I’m sorry to have to point out that yours is but one opinion among a great many. The arrogance with which you continue to below it wins you few friends here and will result in moderation if you don’t tone it down a good bit. I am becoming increasingly sick of the cyclic nature of this argument. It is impacting the smooth running of the forum IMHO.
Click to expand...

However technically Jez is correct. There is no science behind mains cables other than Ohms Law and a bit of a.c. theory. I would ask anyone who feels that spending more than a few quid on a mains cable to look at the house wiring to the mains sockets - in most cases it is utter cheap rubbish that meets the necessary regulations. If you want bling so the cable looks nice and matches the rest of the kit then thats fine. You pays yer money and takes yer choice.

Cheers,

DV
 
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