A review of some amps on home demo: Naim v Luxman v Devialet v Vitus

[jackbarron]

Jack.
I could have lived on with the Naim Nac 252, I think, but I sold it to free cash for a vacation or two with my family. Then of course I started on another mad hifi journey that should have brought me straight to one of the interesting integrated amps mentione here rather than a string of more or less expensive seperate amps ....

I have eyed the following integrated amps which I may begin my own thread about:
AudioPlan Sitar
Vitus (various integrated amps)
Aestetix Mimas (with phono stage)
NAT Single
Air Tight 201H
Karan i180 mk. II

Hiya, sorry have just switched my previous post around. I should only put up messages when they are finished, instead trying to edit on the fly.

Integrated amps make complete sense to me. It's one of the reasons why I liked the EAR V20 so much. I'd be interested to read what people have to say about them.

Jack

 

[duckworp]

@Rosewind - As a Naim 'user' I would recommend the Vitus. The reason is that Vitus does everything Naim does, in that the tonal balance of the sound and the way it conveys the transients in an engaging way, is broadly similar, but the Vitus seems just to do it better and presents the whole package as a more singly musical whole. The RI-100 (now RI-101) is wonderful, and the model up (SIA-025) is Class A and simply sublime.

@jackbarron - I agree with you re the CAD - the CAD DAC is the most wonderful sounding DAC I have ever heard.

 

[Cereal Killer]

This is a great thread and highlights a number of important aspects of hifi, as well as the big challenge we face in the UK, which is hearing a wide enough range of comparable stuff in a suitable environment, ideally your home.

As some have highlighted, the importance of the room, speakers, musical preferences, and ultimately personal taste, make the journey of putting together a system that satisfies over the long-term really tough and wrought with not-inconsiderable financial downsides to getting it wrong. I sold my Naim stuff at the start of 2017 and still haven't completed my replacement system.

As I noted above, the biggest challenge is hearing enough kit - many retailers will only stock one or two products at a certain price-point making it very difficult to compare apples to apples across a wide range of makes. Add to that system synergies and it becomes a minefield. Even if you are lucky enough to find a dealer with a wider choice, chances are that the choice is driven by their own tastes or their ties to certain distributors, so may not match yours.

Home demos can also be difficult - whilst I understand that this requires significant effort on behalf of the dealer, some make the assumption that a home demo = sale. I had one particularly challenging instance where a distributor was extremely rude to my wife.

As a note on Constellation / Soulution etc being comparators to Vitus price-wise, many of these brands have introduced ranges with lower price points (albeit still pretty pricey) which might offer a good comparison.

To the point on speed - agreed outright it can become edgy, but think this is where system synergy comes in. I use a valved DAC into the Bernings which I suspect makes a big difference in the overall balance of the presentation.

You areyou getting on with the MAX monos now? System complete?

 

[Mike Reed]

Have just read a HiFi+ (?) review of the R1-101 integrated and it was very positive indeed. He compared it to its predecessor, the R1-100 and found improvements, although minor criticisms were aired about ultimate detail . He also mentioned the flexibility to add a DAC and streaming device and that the higher priced class A machine was a different kettle of fish.

Of the two models, I wonder which would be more acceptable to a valved amplification user. You mention Naim by comparison, and E.A.R. (well, most power amps) are described as the valved equivalent of s/s, to which I'd agree having gone from upper Naim. Class A amps have been more associated with the valve sound, but I wonder if this is apposite to the Vitus offerings.

 

[duckworp]

Of the two models, I wonder which would be more acceptable to a valved amplification user. You mention Naim by comparison, and E.A.R. (well, most power amps) are described as the valved equivalent of s/s, to which I'd agree having gone from upper Naim. Class A amps have been more associated with the valve sound, but I wonder if this is apposite to the Vitus offerings.

For a more valve-like sound you should look at the Vitus SIA-025. In Class A mode (to 25W) it is a silky, liquid, very holographic sound; not warm or over-smooth so much but clear, detailed, organic, and musical with that liquid touch. It is definitely solid state but a lover of valves will appreciate those qualities in the mids and top end. The bass is definitely solid state: deep and tightly controlled.

As per my original review the Luxman had the most valve-like qualities in a warm, smooth sound with a looser bass. But it lacks detail and sounds perhaps a little coloured.

I think the reason why the Vitus SIA-025 has become such an iconic classic amp is because it manages somehow to combine the best of everything: it has the excitement of a 552/500 Naim in the rhythmic drive and the way transients are handled, then it has the liquid, holographic sound of a valve amp, and added on to this it displays the grip and depth in the bass department of the best solid state. And nothing is coloured. And it’s does it all in a small box. Vitus has said this amp will always remain in the line-up as it is perfect and can’t be improved (or at least not within its small box size and price).

The RI-100 has some of these qualities but isn’t quite in the class of the SIA-025.

 

[YNWOAN]

*There are few who find the Naim to be superior to Devialet amps.

There are few with regards to this particular thread, but in the wider audio world you won’t struggle to find people who prefer Naim (or any number of alternative amps) over Devialet.

———-
It seems to me that some ‘audiophiles’ reach a point where they somehow feel compelled to de-box their amplification and buy an integrated solution. Often they then follow this by adding a streamer, ripper, a NAS, a DAC, reclocker etc etc.....

 

[heihei]

You areyou getting on with the MAX monos now? System complete?

MAX are awesome. Made the mistake of listening to the Stern Heisenberg combination - different league! Also demo-ing CH stack which should be interesting.

 

[Salamander]

Your doing yourself no favours heihei.
I should be able to get a listen to the MAX in the near future.

 

[Rosewind]

Jesus Christ! If you are looking at Heisenberg/Stein - the sky's the limit as far as cost goes. You might as well include Naim Statement and EAR M100 etc in that listening bout.

 

[hifinutt]

well been a naim statement on hifi for sale for a while if you fancy one

 

[Cereal Killer]

SO you'll be letting the MAX MONOs go then....... tempting, v tempting .....

Have you seen the GTT vid:

 

[myrman]

A shameless plug but I have just put my Vitus SS-010 up for sale in the classifieds if anyone is interested

 

[heihei]

I have to admit I personally don't know where the view that Vitus is similar to Naim but better comes from. To me, they are almost polar opposites, and I wonder if that's why Vitus is so popular with people looking to move on from Naim.
Vitus majors in smooth flow of music with that creamy class A sound (talking the S series here). As such, it doesn't do PRaT driven by a sharp leading edge, and isn't class-leading in terms of detail and transparency. Don't get me wrong, there is a lot to like about it - it's just nowhere near the Naim sound.

BTW the above is based on owning NDS/552/300/Ovator Naim system and spending a lot of time with Vitus SIA-025/SL-103/SM-011/SS-103

 

[duckworp]

I have to admit I personally don't know where the view that Vitus is similar to Naim but better comes from. To me, they are almost polar opposites, and I wonder if that's why Vitus is so popular with people looking to move on from Naim.
Vitus majors in smooth flow of music with that creamy class A sound (talking the S series here). As such, it doesn't do PRaT driven by a sharp leading edge, and isn't class-leading in terms of detail and transparency. Don't get me wrong, there is a lot to like about it - it's just nowhere near the Naim sound.

BTW the above is based on owning NDS/552/300/Ovator Naim system and spending a lot of time with Vitus SIA-025/SL-103/SM-011/SS-103

They are different for sure, especially the Vitus Class A SIA-025. This was something I was trying to get over in the original review, though that was specifically about the RI-100. I wouldn't go as far as 'polar opposite' though - valve amps or the Luxmans in my review are more polar opposite to the Naim sound.

Anecdotally I know that a lot of Vitus owners have come from Naim so there is something about the Vitus sound which appeals to Naim owners. I think it has something to do with the Naim sound as you progress up the Naim chain. So a CDX2 as a source in a system with a NAP 180, with its unregulated power supply, taking a signal from a NAC 282 or 82 is pure PRaT - seat of your pants, exciting, aggressive, but ultimately adolescent and tiring. Then as you move up the Naim chain you get to the mature and more civilized CDS3, the NAP 300 and the NAC 252. Then you move to the NAC 552 preamp and things get more refined again. Add DR and the same happens. With this set up Naim moves toward the Vitus sound but I’d argue that Vitus just does that civilised musical sound so much better. And so much cheaper when you consider the cost of a Naim 500 rig. Hence Vitus short-cuts a Naim upgrade path and at less financial cost and with fewer boxes, and most importantly it sounds, to many ears, better.

As an aside just this week I heard a Naim Statement pre-amp - hugely impressive though once again it was less PRaT and more refinement, less Naim, more Vitus. And only one box - though it is a very large box.

 

[Suffolk Tony]

Anecdotally I know that a lot of Vitus owners have come from Naim so there is something about the Vitus sound which appeals to Naim owners. ... and most importantly it sounds, to many ears, better.

Not to these ears it doesn't. I've a good friend who's a lover of Vitus, and I do enjoy the sound his system makes, but it's always a relief to get back to my own, Naim-based setup. With his prompting, I did try a Vitus integrated for my second system, but my DIY Avondale dual-mono "Voyager" type amp, with a cheap Denon A/V amp, was a better listen. If you want cheaper than Naim but wish to retain the sound, then try Avondale.

 

[sls4321]

I may have commented before, but what is the point of comparing a 90w Naim pre-power costing 27k with other units (Devialet is a complete system) costing 6 to 10k? The top of the range Devialet 1000 Expert Pro still costs somewhat less than the Naim. With decent speakers it will blow you away.
I was recently at Devialet in Rue Reaumur and they had a Devialet 250 Expert Pro (which I have with Harbeth) playing through B&W 804. Sounded terrible, the speakers were lifeless. There is quite a bit of criticism in reviews of the bass of the 804, it seems a bit of a halfway house speaker mainly used for 5.1 surround sound.

 

[Purité Audio]

I don’t believe it necessarily follows that the more expensive the amp is the higher it’s performance, especially with solid state, low distortion amplifiers.
SQ’s Neurochromes have some of the finest measurements I have seen, likewise the Hypex Ncores.
Keith

 

[duckworp]

I may have commented before, but what is the point of comparing a 90w Naim pre-power costing 27k with other units (Devialet is a complete system) costing 6 to 10k? The top of the range Devialet 1000 Expert Pro still costs somewhat less than the Naim. With decent speakers it will blow you away.
I was recently at Devialet in Rue Reaumur and they had a Devialet 250 Expert Pro (which I have with Harbeth) playing through B&W 804. Sounded terrible, the speakers were lifeless. There is quite a bit of criticism in reviews of the bass of the 804, it seems a bit of a halfway house speaker mainly used for 5.1 surround sound.

The Devialet in the review was cheaper than the Vitus and the Luxman but was in a similar ball park. The Naim was considerably more expensive than any of the other amps reviewed, which was one of the points of the review: to illustrate to Naim 'users' like myself that there are cheaper alternatives which some would argue would sound better. The Naim upgrade path is one which feels difficult to get off when you are fully invested in it, but I’d argue with a little time and effort one can achieve a lot more for considerable less investment and fewer boxes.

The B&W 804D is not 'mainly' used as a surround sound speaker. There is a 5.1 configuration with B&W 802/800s at the front and 804/805 at the back but the sales of these systems are apparently VERY low compared to the sales of the same speakers into two-channel hifi. The sound is so different to Harbeth that it does not surprise me that you would not enjoy the B&W if Harbeth is your thing. I can imagine the Harbeth sounding good with the Devialet that I heard. I’ve never matched Harbeth with Naim but I suspect that would be good too, taming the excesses of Naim.
At the extreme I bet the Harbeth with the Luxman would probably be too thick and syrupy, but with the Devialet, yes I see that.

 

[sls4321]

The Devialet in the review was cheaper than the Vitus and the Luxman but was in a similar ball park. The Naim was considerably more expensive than any of the other amps reviewed, which was one of the points of the review: to illustrate to Naim 'users' like myself that there are cheaper alternatives which some would argue would sound better. The Naim upgrade path is one which feels difficult to get off when you are fully invested in it, but I’d argue with a little time and effort one can achieve a lot more for considerable less investment and fewer boxes.

The B&W 804D is not 'mainly' used as a surround sound speaker. There is a 5.1 configuration with B&W 802/800s at the front and 804/805 at the back but the sales of these systems are apparently VERY low compared to the sales of the same speakers into two-channel hifi. The sound is so different to Harbeth that it does not surprise me that you would not enjoy the B&W if Harbeth is your thing. I can imagine the Harbeth sounding good with the Devialet that I heard. I’ve never matched Harbeth with Naim but I suspect that would be good too, taming the excesses of Naim.
At the extreme I bet the Harbeth with the Luxman would probably be too thick and syrupy, but with the Devialet, yes I see that.

I would agree with most of that. Actually Devialet had three brands of speakers and it was the B&W that let the show down. The Devialet 220 also includes a fantastic phono stage, as good as an expensive valve one I had, and a state of the art streamer.

I only once briefly got on an upgrade path, Linn Majik to Linn Akurate, and I got my money back by trading in with the same authorised dealer.

The way to get off the component upgrade thing it to sell everything and start again. A reason helps, like saving space or having a system the family can use (and they stop complaining). I sold a perfectly good system to get a one-box system, which happily turns out to perform better. There is an increasing amount of choice of quality one-box products. I once had a Naim UnitiQute2 and the good thing was Naim had excellent resale value.

I actually heard Harbeth M30.1 and the original Devialet D-Premier 200 in about 2010. If I'd gone for that then (when I went digital), I'd have saved a lot of pain and quite a bit of money. Devialet doesn't really have a sound, so to speak. The sound is shaped by the speakers. What virtually everyone notices is the transient speed. It allow maximum dynamics. You can do it with Class A/B, but it becomes very expensive if you want to do it well with lots of power. Doing it with an A/D hybrid and a killer power supply is a lot cheaper and is Devialet's core technology.

 

[amazement]

I would agree with most of that. Actually Devialet had three brands of speakers and it was the B&W that let the show down. The Devialet 220 also includes a fantastic phono stage, as good as an expensive valve one I had, and a state of the art streamer.

I only once briefly got on an upgrade path, Linn Majik to Linn Akurate, and I got my money back by trading in with the same authorised dealer.

The way to get off the component upgrade thing it to sell everything and start again. A reason helps, like saving space or having a system the family can use (and they stop complaining). I sold a perfectly good system to get a one-box system, which happily turns out to perform better. There is an increasing amount of choice of quality one-box products. I once had a Naim UnitiQute2 and the good thing was Naim had excellent resale value.

I actually heard Harbeth M30.1 and the original Devialet D-Premier 200 in about 2010. If I'd gone for that then (when I went digital), I'd have saved a lot of pain and quite a bit of money. Devialet doesn't really have a sound, so to speak. The sound is shaped by the speakers. What virtually everyone notices is the transient speed. It allow maximum dynamics. You can do it with Class A/B, but it becomes very expensive if you want to do it well with lots of power. Doing it with an A/D hybrid and a killer power supply is a lot cheaper and is Devialet's core technology.

I agree when you say Devialet has no sound and is shaped by the speaker. My 220 sounded ok with Harbeth but I've really hit the target since a change of speaker to Proac. I never felt my Naim system suited the Harbeths too much either.
I don't miss my multi box Naim system one bit. I now have a compact great sounding system that walks all over what went before. The 220 does everything I want, fantastic piece of kit. Like you if id taken this route sooner would have saved a load of cash.
There's also the option to monobloc if I want, but don't feel I'm missing anything with a single 220.