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Brexit: give me a positive effect (2022 remastered edition) II

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tuga said:
And are they any better for voting Leave?
They are not, so what is the point other than a theoretical gain?
All it’s done is put the worst scum in No.10 and no chance to make this democracy democratic. FPTP, illegal suspension of democracy/parliament with no repercussions, 3 unelected Prime Ministers, changed to complicate young people’s voting…

It’s one dumb goal that’s not even real
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You need to think about why the tories are in No.10. There is the simplistic reason put forward by some in an effort to absolve themselves of responsibility, then there is the real reason. 2010, 2015, 2017 and 2019. The tories are not there because of brexit, brexit is because of the tories and tories are there because people put them there. 4 times. They are getting what they deserve.

Idealism and nationalism are both a major part of this whole sorry period in UK history.
 
Brian said:
You need to think about why the tories are in No.10. There is the simplistic reason put forward by some in an effort to absolve themselves of responsibility, then there is the real reason. 2010, 2015, 2017 and 2019. The tories are not there because of brexit, brexit is because of the tories and tories are there because people put them there. 4 times. They are getting what they deserve.

Idealism and nationalism are both a major part of this whole sorry period in UK history.
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The Tories have the majority because most people want Brexit. Conservatism, Nationalism and Entitlement are the drivig forces, the voters an ageing population.
 
Labour won't get any votes from them, in fact they lost votes. I wonder who's to blame if not Labour...
 
tuga said:
The Tories have the majority because most people want Brexit. Conservatism, Nationalism and Entitlement are the drivig forces, the voters an ageing population.
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Entitlement? What is that? Conservatism as it once was is dead in the UK, what is happening now is not Conservatism, it is neoliberalism.

I obviously agree about nationalism. I’d say it’s the root cause of the problems and not just in the UK. What was that you said earlier about No.10?

tuga said:
Labour won't get any votes from them, in fact they lost votes. I wonder who's to blame if not Labour...
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What are you on about? Votes from whom? How is Labour to blame for people choosing to put the tories into govt 3 times in a row, and before that being enabled by the LibDems to start the ball rolling?
 
Brian said:
Entitlement? What is that?
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That sense of superiority that only foreigners seem to perceive...


Brian said:
Conservatism as it once was is dead in the UK, what is happening now is not Conservatism, it is neoliberalism.
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I am talking about cultural Conservatism. Très Anglais. It's somewhat related with Nationalism.

Brian said:
What are you on about? Votes from whom? How is Labour to blame for people choosing to put the tories into govt 3 times in a row, and before that being enabled by the LibDems to start the ball rolling?
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Ever heard of the Fall of the Red Wall?
 
tuga said:
The Tories have the majority because most people want Brexit. Conservatism, Nationalism and Entitlement are the drivig forces, the voters an ageing population.
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Quite. Ask yourself this- where did the 48 new Tory seats come from in the 2019 GE? They didn’t come from N.Ireland and they didn’t come from Scotland. Then ask yourself why Starmer won’t go anywhere near the subject of renegotiating Brexit with the EU. The answer to both questions is the same: Labour’s Gammon exodus, seen most fragrantly in seats owned for generations by Labour, wiped off the map by Boris Johnson blowing his anti-European, anti-immigrant dog whistle.

Labour know where the battleground is for 2024 and they know what real estate they need to win back from the Tories.
 
Kirk said:
And as if the NHS wasn't facing enough challenges:

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2022/nov/27/brexit-worsened-shortage-nhs-doctors-eu

I see Brexiter number three has returned.
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There is a shortage of doctors and medical staff across Europe. Some German regions have a critical shortage of GPs, and the same is true of France. Portugal has a crisis of maternity ward staff. And so on. All because of bloody brexit.

A continent in crisis
Health care staff shortages aren’t limited to doctors — and they aren’t limited to France.

More than two years into a pandemic that decimated personnel, health care managers and governments alike are scrambling to cobble together a semblance of a workforce.

Europe’s health care worker shortfall — around 2 million — is acutely felt across the Continent.

In Greece, first responders are sounding the alarm over longer emergency response times due to a shortage of personnel. England lacks tens of thousands of nurses, reporting a record number of vacancies. Nurses top the list of all occupations experiencing shortages in Finland. Maternity wards in Portugal are struggling to stay open due to a lack of doctors.

https://www.politico.eu/article/france-doctors-europe-too-far-too-old-too-few/
 
Ah yes, nothing to do with Brexit. NHS England had the lowest number of doctors per capita following Brexit and prior to Covid of any EU or OECD state except Poland. You then get a flavour of why something like Covid becomes the straw that breaks the camel’s back.
Of course we shouldn’t consider Brexit in isolation, we have to view it in the context of more than a decade of anti-doctor, anti-NHS policy by failed successive Conservative governments but that’s for another thread.
 
eternumviti said:
There is a shortage of doctors and medical staff across Europe. Some German regions have a critical shortage of GPs, and the same is true of France. Portugal has a crisis of maternity ward staff. And so on. All because of bloody brexit.

A continent in crisis
Health care staff shortages aren’t limited to doctors — and they aren’t limited to France.

More than two years into a pandemic that decimated personnel, health care managers and governments alike are scrambling to cobble together a semblance of a workforce.

Europe’s health care worker shortfall — around 2 million — is acutely felt across the Continent.

In Greece, first responders are sounding the alarm over longer emergency response times due to a shortage of personnel. England lacks tens of thousands of nurses, reporting a record number of vacancies. Nurses top the list of all occupations experiencing shortages in Finland. Maternity wards in Portugal are struggling to stay open due to a lack of doctors.

https://www.politico.eu/article/france-doctors-europe-too-far-too-old-too-few/
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Portugal Italy and Spain have doctor and nurse unemployment. Which is why you see so many of them in the UK, and Germany, and Switzerland, and…
 
eternumviti said:
Why are they unemployed when the wards are having to close through lack of staff, tuga?
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Because the (underfunded) state isn't hiring. In Portugal two employees must leave before a replacement can be hired. What I struggle to understand is why a world-beating rich nation such as the UK can be suffering from understaffing...
Brexit is one of the causes, the Tories are the other.
 
eternumviti said:
There is a shortage of doctors and medical staff across Europe. Some German regions have a critical shortage of GPs, and the same is true of France. Portugal has a crisis of maternity ward staff. And so on. All because of bloody brexit.

A continent in crisis
Health care staff shortages aren’t limited to doctors — and they aren’t limited to France.

More than two years into a pandemic that decimated personnel, health care managers and governments alike are scrambling to cobble together a semblance of a workforce.

Europe’s health care worker shortfall — around 2 million — is acutely felt across the Continent.

In Greece, first responders are sounding the alarm over longer emergency response times due to a shortage of personnel. England lacks tens of thousands of nurses, reporting a record number of vacancies. Nurses top the list of all occupations experiencing shortages in Finland. Maternity wards in Portugal are struggling to stay open due to a lack of doctors.

https://www.politico.eu/article/france-doctors-europe-too-far-too-old-too-few/
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I don't think anybody has said that Europe is short of doctors because of Brexit - did you make that one up?

The shortages in Europe are mostly because it is a hard profession: 10+ years of study, long hours, weekend/night shifts, stress, low salaries relative to other professions (a junior doctor in France just about makes the minimum wage), increasing management-by-numbers bureaucracies second guessing medical decisions, etc. Bright students increasingly choose other paths. But given that is the situation across the whole continent, how does Brexit help to attract more health professionals to the UK. Until recently, Britain attracted thousands from all over the EU and the rest of the world.
 
PsB said:
I don't think anybody has said that Europe is short of doctors because of Brexit - did you make that one up?

The shortages in Europe are mostly because it is a hard profession: 10+ years of study, long hours, weekend/night shifts, low salaries relative to other professions (a junior doctor in France just about makes the minimum wage), increasing management-by-numbers bureaucracies second guessing medical decisions, etc. But given that is the situation across the whole continent, how does Brexit help to attract more health professionals to the UK?
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Evie will always try to show how European countries are not better off than we are. And when all else fails, he will go on about how Greece was abused by the EU...
 
tuga said:
Evie will always try to show how European countries are not better off than we are. And when all else fails, he will go on about how Greece was abused by the EU...
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I guess I'm in good company...

tuga said:
...(Austerity) was severe, but childs paly in comparison with what people had to live trhough in Portugal, where I lived at the time, or Greece...
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Or are you now going to tell me that austerity in Portugal & Greece had nothing to do with the EU?
 
PsB said:
I don't think anybody has said that Europe is short of doctors because of Brexit - did you make that one up?

The shortages in Europe are mostly because it is a hard profession: 10+ years of study, long hours, weekend/night shifts, stress, low salaries relative to other professions (a junior doctor in France just about makes the minimum wage), increasing management-by-numbers bureaucracies second guessing medical decisions, etc. Bright students increasingly choose other paths. But given that is the situation across the whole continent, how does Brexit help to attract more health professionals to the UK. Until recently, Britain attracted thousands from all over the EU and the rest of the world.
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And how do you feel about the UK having attracted all those expensively trained health professionals from countries that desperately need them themselves?

I believe the Albanian government is considering putting a three year home contract on all newly graduated health professionals, upon completion of which their qualifications will be dependent.

The UK should concentrate on training its own doctors & nurses, instead of outsourcing it to the taxpayers of countries that can ill-afford it.
 
eternumviti said:
I guess I'm in good company...



Or are you now going to tell me that austerity in Portugal & Greece had nothing to do with the EU?
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I think it had to do with poor governing (strategy, overspending, oversized public service), and the Euro (together with an over-optimistic conversion rate set by the government of the day).
 
tuga said:
I think it had to do with poor governing (strategy, overspending, oversized public service), and the Euro (together with an over-optimistic conversion rate set by the government of the day).
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You seem to have steeped it in honey, and served warm.

So not the EU, then?
 
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