Brexit: give me a positive effect (2022 remastered edition) II

[eternumviti]

"Amongst the objective threats of continued EU membership one might include the progressive and very real dilution of democracy"

Although I'm sure the old windbag would have piped up himself by now if he disagreed with me.

The old windbag has piped up. I responded to you this morning.

 

[ff1d1l]

Some well considered points, some not so much, a fair bit of your own conflation - most pertinently that of repeatedly comparing an elected and accountable government with an unelected and unaccountable set of technocratic institutions, (I haven't the faintest who Tucker Carlson is, incidentally) some recourse to the usual tribal pejoratives, and a continued weakness for the usual EU platitudes (peace, prosperity etc), but a decent enough post. I accept your best points, even if I don't necessarily agree with them, whilst I agree with some of your worst points, by which I mean those that aren't relevant to the debate.

We are the only country to have left the EU because we have served as a vivid demonstration to les autres as to how bloody the EU will make it, because most members are currently happy with their status, and because leaving it is effectively impossible for those members which are also in the EZ. Despite all of that, the French President expressed his relief that there hadn't been an in-out referendum in France back in 2016, as we wasn't confident that the result would have been 'the right one'.

"How bloody the EU will make it"
Exactly how?
Seems to me they've been extremely accomodating, and difficulty has arisen from those negotiating on our behalf being the recipients of very low marks at school for comprehension, but nevertheless choosing as a career.
But if you'd like to enumerate ways in which the mess we're in is in any way the EU's fault, since brexit, I'm all ears.
Unless, of course, you can prove frost, francis, may, mogg etc are in fact EU actors?

 

[eternumviti]

The EU hasn't been remotely accommodating, and our negotiators were indeed by and large hopeless.

 

[richardg]

I am intrigued by this. Are you suggesting that kebab shop fruit machine money laundering is a significant effect?

Or like one bloke who has done maybe £100k and is about to get arrested for tax fraud?

Also who is using this facility? Criminals? Small business owners?

Not sure.....on the last one I suspect mainly small businesses, having a certain Italian acquaintance that frequents them when he comes up from Milan! This of course also makes him a criminal, I think?

It has a significant effect on the town, which is not that affluent, and its is very samll. Yet there are plenty of Lambos, Ferraris and Merc AMGs!

 

[foxwelljsly]

The old windbag has piped up. I responded to you this morning.

So you did.

 

[farfromthesun]

Retaining membership of SM and CU was on the table but it got no support.

Just popping into the thread to correct this inaccurate statement for about the 100th time; SM & CU, a "Norway" type Brexit or in fact anything other than a hard Brexit went out of the window when Theresa May made her Mansion House speech in March 2018.

 

[ks.234]

But only advisory so the safeguards usually attendant on a referendum - required supermajority, void if corrupt etc could be torn up.

If that argument had any legs, the question is why did no one run with it. Run with it long enough, and it might’ve reached the European Courts, which you’d have though would be sympathetic. But no, nobody ran with it. Why?

 

[ks.234]

Just popping into the thread to correct this inaccurate statement for about the 100th time; SM & CU, a "Norway" type Brexit or in fact anything other than a hard Brexit went out of the window when Theresa May made her Mansion House speech in March 2018.

Except we’re talking about the triggering of A50, which happened a year earlier.

 

[ks.234]

Just because David Cameron says something doesn't mean it's true...

And yet, here we are…

 

[ff1d1l]

If that argument had any legs, the question is why did no one run with it. Run with it long enough, and it might’ve reached the European Courts, which you’d have though would be sympathetic. But no, nobody ran with it. Why?

Because it was entirely legal. What law do you think it broke?
It was a device to circumvent the law, and entirely effective.

 

[ks.234]

"Amongst the objective threats of continued EU membership one might include the progressive and very real dilution of democracy"

Although I'm sure the old windbag would have piped up himself by now if he disagreed with me.

Where is that quote from, you, or EV?

 

[ks.234]

Because it was entirely legal. What law do you think it broke?
It was a device to circumvent the law, and entirely effective.

It obviously broke no law, otherwise someone would’ve challenged it in court

 

[ff1d1l]

The EU hasn't been remotely accommodating, and our negotiators were indeed by and large hopeless.

So, ways in which they weren't accomodating, and were obstructive?

 

[foxwelljsly]

Where is that quote from, you, or EV?

EV. I am so not getting further involved in this thread. It will change precisely nothing and the world will still be shit and stupid.

 

[ff1d1l]

It obviously broke no law, otherwise someone would’ve challenged it in court

What, is it non sequitur hour already?

 

[ks.234]

EV. I am so not getting further involved in this thread. It will change precisely nothing and the world will still be shit and stupid.

Yes, Brexit was decided years ago.

 

[ks.234]

What, is it non sequitur hour already?

You’re back in now?

 

[farfromthesun]

Except we’re talking about the triggering of A50, which happened a year earlier.

Here's your comment that I quoted, and responded to:

Retaining membership of SM and CU was on the table but it got no support.

There was support for SM & CU prior to Article 50 being triggered, after Article 50 had been triggered, and now, post Brexit.

There probably wasn't much vocal support at the time from MP's because to stick your neck out on that would have had you branded as a "traitor" or an "enemy of the people."

 

[PsB]

The EU hasn't been remotely accommodating, and our negotiators were indeed by and large hopeless.

While I agree with your second part, I would dispute the first: the EU was highly accommodating of successive British governments and parliamentary procedures.
- After Art. 50 was invoked, the EU waited and waited while HMG dithered over what form of Brexit it thought it wanted.
- It bent over backwards to keep the whole UK inside a de facto customs union to accommodate Theresa May's daft red lines, and negotiated an agreement on that basis.
- When she was defenestrated by Johnson, they went back to the drawing board, bent over backwards in another direction and negotiated the NIP, which Johnson proclaimed a "great deal".
- The EU agreed to multiple deadline extensions, suspended certain border checks for extended periods, all to give the UK time to get its act together
- Etc.
For an organization routinely derided by Brexiters as rule-bound and bureaucratic, the EU showed flexibility and creativity, including on core elements like the Single Market.

 

[matthewr]

Not sure.....on the last one I suspect mainly small businesses, having a certain Italian acquaintance that frequents them when he comes up from Milan! This of course also makes him a criminal, I think?

It has a significant effect on the town, which is not that affluent, and its is very samll. Yet there are plenty of Lambos, Ferraris and Merc AMGs!

So it's a one off, money laundering scheme for some low level criminals in one kebab shop in the town you live in?

I got the impression from your remarks that it was either on a significant scale or some sort of systemic effect, no?