Brexit: give me a positive effect (2022 remastered edition) II

[tuga]

You seem to have steeped it in honey, and served warm.

So not the EU, then?

The EU poured millions into these countries. I should blame it for that... “If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day. If you teach a man to fish, you feed him for a lifetime.”

 

[ff1d1l]

The EU poured millions into these countries. I should blame it for that... “If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day. If you teach a man to fish, you feed him for a lifetime.”

Shome mishtake shurely 'Teach a man to fish and he'll vote brexit for a day, then get sold down the river, and have a massive what the **** have I done moment, for a lifetime.'

 

[PsB]

And how do you feel about the UK having attracted all those expensively trained health professionals from countries that desperately need them themselves?

I believe the Albanian government is considering putting a three year home contract on all newly graduated health professionals, upon completion of which their qualifications will be dependent.

The UK should concentrate on training its own doctors & nurses, instead of outsourcing it to the taxpayers of countries that can ill-afford it.

Ah yes, a variation on your poor Greeks gambit. An equally glib answer: it's just offer meeting demand. Their home countries (in this case, mostly reasonably developed European countries) should perhaps offer better pay and working conditions if they're unhappy with the brain drain. As long as they're qualified, what's your problem? You're not one of these people against market forces, by any chance?

More seriously, why do you think Britain doesn't train more doctors? Doesn't want to? Entrance requirements too high, and if so, should standards be lowered? Why do most British students with good A-levels choose to study something else? Could it have something to do with the opportunity to earn double at a law firm, an investment bank or a consultancy after shorter studies? Are you willing to pay more tax to fund the NHS in a better way?

Also:
- 3 years from graduation does nothing. It takes longer than 3 years to get them beyond junior doctor level. The UK doesn't recruit doctors fresh from medical school. So: 10 years? 20? Indentured for life?
- Would these sorts of restrictions apply only to doctors and nurses? How about engineers? Accountants? Lawyers? How do you justify discriminating against certain degrees but not others?
- Would your restrictions also apply to doctors that had to pay for their studies? How do you enforce all this?
- Do you think such restrictions would encourage more people to embrace a medical career in their home country?

Then consider:
- Should the same restrictions apply to British doctors tempted to bail out from a severely underfunded NHS to go to Australia or New Zealand?
- If so, do you believe this would encourage a greater proportion of talented British students to choose medicine versus law or banking?
- Will creeping privatization of the NHS reverse any of these trends?

 

[Brian]

That sense of superiority that only foreigners seem to perceive...

By whom? 17.4m by any chance, or just the English?

I am talking about cultural Conservatism. Très Anglais. It's somewhat related with Nationalism.

Are you? Explain why you mention it please. What is the relevance to anything I posted?

Ever heard of the Fall of the Red Wall?

Yes. And?

 

[eternumviti]

The EU poured millions into these countries. I should blame it for that... “If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day. If you teach a man to fish, you feed him for a lifetime.”

I'm not at all sure how that answers my question. During and following the process of accession, the EC (as it was then) did indeed pour vast sums of desperately needed cash into the two countries. Austerity, though, was an EU thing, and was a direct consequence of the Euro, and its virtual meltdown nearly 3 decades later.

Or are you saying that that had nothing to do with the EU, but was due to undefined 'bad strategy' 'corruption' (whose bad strategy, whose corruption?) and oversized public services. You mentioned the Euro as though it were something in isolation that had nothing to do with the EU.

 

[Brian]

Quite. Ask yourself this- where did the 48 new Tory seats come from in the 2019 GE? They didn’t come from N.Ireland and they didn’t come from Scotland. Then ask yourself why Starmer won’t go anywhere near the subject of renegotiating Brexit with the EU. The answer to both questions is the same: Labour’s Gammon exodus, seen most fragrantly in seats owned for generations by Labour, wiped off the map by Boris Johnson blowing his anti-European, anti-immigrant dog whistle.

Labour know where the battleground is for 2024 and they know what real estate they need to win back from the Tories.

As ever, living in denial and refusing to accept responsibility. Everyone knows what happened in 2019, it’s been accepted and acknowledged, though it is of course, the simplistic answer.

The perception of a party determines how people vote. You are gleeful about nationalism taking 40 seats from Labour in 2015, despite a referendum on EU membership being in the tory manifesto, so brexit is not your first priority. Nationalism in Scotland reducing Labour seats from 41 to 40 has a part to play in this despite your denial. Ironically, you want to do it all again.

 

[eternumviti]

Ah yes, a variation on your poor Greeks gambit.

Yes, I recall you not giving a ff about the monstering of Greece by the EU, despite your having lived and worked there. Goes back to the earliest days of our interactions. I'm never quite sure whether you are a soft left social democrat or a hard-nosed feathernesting globalist. You're certainly not a bleeding-heart liberal.

An equally glib answer: it's just offer meeting demand. Their home countries (in this case, mostly reasonably developed European countries) should perhaps offer better pay and working conditions if they're unhappy with the brain drain. As long as they're qualified, what's your problem? You're not one of these people against market forces, by any chance?

I'm aware of the perils of free-movement, which routinely establishes the supremacy of capital over labour, and the transfer of human resources and corporate capital from the poor to the rich countries. Free movement provided a deep mine upon which the UK built its entire societal and business model for 30 years. Brexit broke it. Its going to take a long time to build a new model based upon education, training, and corporate investment in robot technology rather than dependence upon cheap EU labour.

More seriously, why do you think Britain doesn't train more doctors? Doesn't want to? Entrance requirements too high, and if so, should standards be lowered? Why do most British students with good A-levels choose to study something else? Could it have something to do with the opportunity to earn double at a law firm, an investment bank or a consultancy after shorter studies? Are you willing to pay more tax to fund the NHS in a better way?

Oh, a complex mixture of government policy and societal, demographic and corporate shifts, and an important debate that we need to be having.

Also:
- 3 years from graduation does nothing. It takes longer than 3 years to get them beyond junior doctor level. The UK doesn't recruit doctors fresh from medical school. So: 10 years? 20? Indentured for life?
- Would these sorts of restrictions apply only to doctors and nurses? How about engineers? Accountants? Lawyers? How do you justify discriminating against certain degrees but not others?
- Would your restrictions also apply to doctors that had to pay for their studies? How do you enforce all this?
- Do you think such restrictions would encourage more people to embrace a medical career in their home country?

You're asking me to answer questions on behalf of the Albanian government. That, I'm afraid, I cannot do.

Then consider:
- Should the same restrictions apply to British doctors tempted to bail out from a severely underfunded NHS to go to Australia or New Zealand?
- If so, do you believe this would encourage a greater proportion of talented British students to choose medicine versus law or banking?
- Will creeping privatization of the NHS reverse any of these trends?

As above.

 

[TheDecameron]

How’s the poor African farmer doing out of Brexit and where’s the great british housewifes’ cut price fruit and veg in the land of the Turnip Monarchy?

 

[eternumviti]

Christmas soon. Double helpings of neaps.

 

[SteveS1]

Its going to take a long time to build a new model based upon education, training, and corporate investment in robot technology rather than dependence upon cheap EU labour.

Ah catchy. Do you think that would have worked as well as "taking back control"?

 

[eternumviti]

Control of what?

 

[tuga]

By whom? 17.4m by any chance, or just the English?


Are you? Explain why you mention it please. What is the relevance to anything I posted?


Yes. And?

You're trying too hard...

 

[tuga]

I'm not at all sure how that answers my question. During and following the process of accession, the EC (as it was then) did indeed pour vast sums of desperately needed cash into the two countries. Austerity, though, was an EU thing, and was a direct consequence of the Euro, and its virtual meltdown nearly 3 decades later.

Or are you saying that that had nothing to do with the EU, but was due to undefined 'bad strategy' 'corruption' (whose bad strategy, whose corruption?) and oversized public services. You mentioned the Euro as though it were something in isolation that had nothing to do with the EU.

As far as I know the Euro was joined voluntarily.

 

[eternumviti]

As far as I know the Euro was joined voluntarily.

Ah, ok, that makes everything alright!

 

[Enfield boy]

Ah yes, a variation on your poor Greeks gambit. An equally glib answer: it's just offer meeting demand. Their home countries (in this case, mostly reasonably developed European countries) should perhaps offer better pay and working conditions if they're unhappy with the brain drain. As long as they're qualified, what's your problem? You're not one of these people against market forces, by any chance?

More seriously, why do you think Britain doesn't train more doctors? Doesn't want to? Entrance requirements too high, and if so, should standards be lowered? Why do most British students with good A-levels choose to study something else? Could it have something to do with the opportunity to earn double at a law firm, an investment bank or a consultancy after shorter studies? Are you willing to pay more tax to fund the NHS in a better way?

Also:
- 3 years from graduation does nothing. It takes longer than 3 years to get them beyond junior doctor level. The UK doesn't recruit doctors fresh from medical school. So: 10 years? 20? Indentured for life?
- Would these sorts of restrictions apply only to doctors and nurses? How about engineers? Accountants? Lawyers? How do you justify discriminating against certain degrees but not others?
- Would your restrictions also apply to doctors that had to pay for their studies? How do you enforce all this?
- Do you think such restrictions would encourage more people to embrace a medical career in their home country?

Then consider:
- Should the same restrictions apply to British doctors tempted to bail out from a severely underfunded NHS to go to Australia or New Zealand?
- If so, do you believe this would encourage a greater proportion of talented British students to choose medicine versus law or banking?
- Will creeping privatization of the NHS reverse any of these trends?

Nicely put, as expected got nothing back but re-re-regurgitated piss and vinegar, perhaps the wine's gone sour?

 

[tuga]

Ah, ok, that makes everything alright!

No. It just makes your blaming frail.

 

[cooky1257]

So post Brexit, how's everyone doing?

 

[PsB]

Yes, I recall you not giving a ff about the monstering of Greece by the EU, despite your having lived and worked there.

That is definitely not my position, which i would hope you would recognize is a tad more subtle than that. But let's not go through Greece and African farmers again. Your concern for these people is noted.

I'm aware of the perils of free-movement, which routinely establishes the supremacy of capital over labour, and the transfer of human resources and corporate capital from the poor to the rich countries. Free movement provided a deep mine upon which the UK built its entire societal and business model for 30 years. Brexit broke it. Its going to take a long time to build a new model based upon education, training, and corporate investment in robot technology rather than dependence upon cheap EU labour.

I don't recall "breaking the UK's entire societal and business model" was part of the Leave UK prospectus. Did I miss that?

Also: EU labour is not necessarily cheap - an EU doctor makes the same in the UK as a British doctor.

Free movement brings both perils and opportunities. Brexit doesn't seem to have empowered labour in the UK much, has it? FM helps to mitigate some of the problems created by free markets, also from the worker's point of view: lots of Poles and Romanians making good money in W. Europe.

Also: private sector investment in the UK has historically been lower than in the EU or US, because, you know, shareholder returns über alles, etc. (as a % of GDP: the UK ranks 27th out of 30 rich countries). Brexit has depressed this further. How is that going to change, and can the UK afford to wait?

Oh, a complex mixture of government policy and societal, demographic and corporate shifts, and an important debate that we need to be having.

"And with one mighty leap, our hero jumps free!!!"

You're asking me to answer questions on behalf of the Albanian government. That, I'm afraid, I cannot do.

Amusing, but that's not really what I was asking you, which was more how you would view these restrictions were they to apply to British professionals trying to work abroad. As a way of pointing out that your prescriptions for governments are unworkable and would make these shortages worse.

It takes 10+ years to train a doctor, 5+ years for a nurse. Where is the UK going to find the health workers it needs this year, next year, and the year after that, to support its aging population and prevent the NHS from exploding? I bet you some free movement will be required, even encouraged by the British government.

 

[eternumviti]

Oh, I don't doubt there will be movement, though its unlikely to be free.

My remarks on 'cheap labour' did not, of course, refer to doctors, who can still come into the UK as they meet the income criteria.

In regard of Greece, the 'poor Greeks' narrative is not and has never been mine, just a construct of TheDecameron. Its a shame to see you pick it up. My concern is with the institutions that were prepared to throw Greece (and Greeks/Italians/Portugese/Spanish/Irish etc) to the dogs to defend their Euro project, and the French & German banks.

 

[eternumviti]

No. It just makes your blaming frail.

Hardly, you haven't even made a case, just muttered some vaguely sugary inanities.