PFM politics threads

[doctorf]

there arnt any really really important subjects on here. In reality we can all debate, navel gaze, shout (metaphorically speaking), write with emotion and passion, but we all (most of us) have a single vote in the electorate, and nothing written on here is going to change my view or the way i vote.

Correct.
And it’s a hifi forum FFS.

 

[TheDecameron]

It’s at intersections like this that Mick will make a rare appearance like the Queen of The Night only to promptly fly off again to the sound of anti aircraft fire.

 

[ks.234]

Jeez, yet again another thread derailed into an MMT thread. I think that is what people are annoyed about, the constant thread derailing and endless arguments. Let’s just have one MMT thread and leave it all on there.

There again, you highlight the problem. I have not raised MMT as a topic, I did mention it in relation to the nature of personal insult, which I take to be a theme of this thread, but it was not me who raised it as a topic.

Much more to the point it was not me who raised the heat on this topic, my post was apologising to all for my part in those heated discussions. Yet the response is from two or three posters who have gone out of their way to again raise the heat. Not with discussion of issues, but with passive aggressive jibes.

If you care to read back, you will see that MMT was not discussed here, as a topic, was two other poster who raised MMT as a topic yet again in order to say “look, MMT is everywhere. Absurd

On another point, I was talking about MMT in direct response to someone who asked for information. If you are suggesting that Imshould not respond to someone asking me a question, I have to say your wrong. If you are not interested, don’t engage. You are like someone who goes onto a cable thread to complain about cable threads. Either engage, or don’t, but please don’t tell me what I can say on here when so one asks me for a response.

MMT has not derailed a single thread, it has been of central relevance to every thread it has been mentioned in, it is about economics and economics are central to politics. Further, it has only become a theme in this thread because two anti MMTers, or rather two people who have no opinion about MMT but use personal jibes to derail any discussion of it, have made it so and on the back of that some asked a direct question.

Shall we have just one Brexit thread and ban Brexit from any other political discussion? Shall we have just one PR thread and ban any discussion of PR in any other political thread? No, and for good reason.

Economics is part of politics and has not derailed any discussion of politics, it has been derailed by people who do not have a contrary opinion, who do not formulate an arguments against a proposition, they just go straight for sticking their fingers in their ears and creating as much irrelevant noise as possible.

 

[Tony L]

there arnt any really really important subjects on here. In reality we can all debate, navel gaze, shout (metaphorically speaking), write with emotion and passion, but we all (most of us) have a single vote in the electorate, and nothing written on here is going to change my view or the way i vote.

I’m prepared to bet pfm has changed some minds. Given where this country is right now I’ll certainly take that as a win. I’m also prepared to bet we’ve raised £hundreds if not £thousands for pressure groups like Good Law Project, LBD etc, as we did with es.klopfte’s humanitarian relief in Ukraine. Do not underestimate the power of crowd-funded resistance. People just like us got rid of a crooked corrupt Prime Minister FFS! We crowd-funded the legal pressure that threatened to sue the Met, resulted in the fines for ‘Partygate’, and sent the whole stack of dominoes crashing down. I’ll take that as a win too. Same with the charity room. Many £thousands raised for various good causes.

Maybe think what you can do?

 

[ks.234]

A good suggestion: it's what happens to all the really, really important subjects anyway. In the same way as we have consolidated BoJo/Starmer/Ukraine/Brexit/Trump/Football/F1 etc. threads, let's have a consolidated MMT thread.

How can you separate politics and economics? We have separate Brexit threads but Brexit gets everywhere. If I don’t like it, or it bores me, I simply don’t engage. If I do engage, I have to expect a response.

Beside, there is a separate MMT thread and precisely the same derailing by extraneous noise that did not address the topic took place there.

The problem isn’t that MMT is everywhere, the problem is that a small group of very loud people try to derail discussion of economics with noise rather than argument.

 

[Brian]

I think that is fair comment, though asking how voting Labour will improve areas like public spending are also legitimate questions. As Brian has said that he does not expect Labour to be better than the Tories, I am happy to leave it there as I have indicated previously

Let’s clear this up from the ‘discussion’ on food banks.

What I’ve said is there is no guarantee Labour will fix the damage done by the tories. I’ve said I would be happy with the type of improvements we saw from Labour between 1997-2010 after the previous tory debacle, so I’m hoping for that because I do think Labour is a better political party than the tories. That is my hope but I demand nothing, I do understand the ‘political’ take on govt spending.

The only thing I am prepared to guarantee is further years of misery for millions if the tories are elected again.

If that wasn’t clear before, I hope it is now.

Below are links to where I believe I already said this.
Labour Leader: Keir Starmer VII

Labour Leader: Keir Starmer VII

Labour Leader: Keir Starmer VII

 

[gintonic]

Maybe think what you can do?

you mean like working for charities as a volunteer? You mean being an active member of a local political party, supporting hustings, knocking on doors getting abuse from constituents.........

 

[ks.234]

To clarify, that's in an economic sense.

The problem with answering your question is that someone might come along and accuse me of derailing, but as you’ve asked….

The question about how Labour will be better than the Tories in any sense remains. It is still possible that Starmer will come out with something distinctive before the next election but his recent abandonment of the Trade unions and his sacking of Sam Tarry and the expulsion of Audrey While do not bode well.

It should also be noted that if Labour does provide anything distinctive that require spending, where that spending will come from will be an important question.

 

[matthewr]

I hate them. I remember when the Off Topic room was full of fun and often made me laugh out loud.

Yes and since PFM is basically a niche interest website it also has a long tradition of niche interest subgroups other than hi-fi and music and that was what made OT an interesting place to be. A population selected by hi-fi and music but talking about anything but that is going to find all sorts of fertile, common ground.

More generally, I've had no interest in hifi for about 20 years and although music is still a big part of my life, discussions about it rarely get much traction here. I was excited the other day at a release of a new single by one of my favourite artists (Katie Crutchfield) in collaboration with a new-to-me artist (Jess Williamson) and the promise of an album to come in October but I would never think about mentioning it here because many of the people here who used to share my love of alt-Americana seem to have moved on.

Overall I don't think PFM is a particularly good place for politics because it has the same problems as other places (arguments, moderator burden, arguments about the rules, etc.) but lacks the size to have much in the way of particularly interesting thought or thinkers (although it's good to see the OG PFM radical lefty Sideshow posting again). We are of course mostly waiting for Leader Vuksanovic to return from exile and leads us in our glorious Marxist revolution

But mostly I go back to my earlier point about the need for a bit of self-reflection. I used to argue with people all the time and then decided to stop and stop it did and I can have perfectly civil interactions with people who used to be my forum nemeses. Of course we all slip up occasionally and post something we later come to regret, but I promise you if you stop taking part in arguments, the arguments will stop.

 

[PsB]

How can you separate politics and economics? We have separate Brexit threads but Brexit gets everywhere. If I don’t like it, or it bores me, I simply don’t engage. If I do engage, I have to expect a response.

Beside, there is a separate MMT thread and precisely the same derailing by extraneous noise that did not address the topic took place there.

The problem isn’t that MMT is everywhere, the problem is that a small group of very loud people try to derail discussion of economics with noise rather than argument.

No, we have multiple MMT threads at the moment: NHS & MMT, What is GDP, What is money, UK National Debt...

I'm not suggesting separating politics and economics (please show where I did that), as that would be a silly idea. Just hoping to group things a bit, same as with other subjects. There is a single Brexit thread AFAICT (there were multiple threads earlier on which got merged; the Dover thread seems to be receding), a single Labour/Starmer, a single footy thread, etc. It's a simple suggestion, nothing to get too worked up about.

 

[Marchbanks]

For some reason I seem to attract nutters, whether on the bus, train, or just in the street. They fix me with an Ancient Mariner's stare, and proceed to tell me the story of their life (usually an unhappy one), and why it was all the fault of the Masons, their parents, their school, or The Booze.

Sorry about that, but I was having a particularly bad day. And I didn’t realise it was you.

 

[ks.234]

No, we have multiple MMT threads at the moment: NHS & MMT, What is GDP, What is money, UK National Debt...

I'm not suggesting separating politics and economics (please show where I did that), as that would be a silly idea. Just hoping to group things a bit, same as with other subjects. There is a single Brexit thread AFAICT (there were multiple threads earlier on which got merged; the Dover thread seems to be receding), a single Labour/Starmer, a single footy thread, etc. It's a simple suggestion, nothing to get too worked up about.

How can you discuss the NHS without discussing the reasons why it is defunded? To separate them out is ridiculous.

Also, I have started threads on Money and GDP in response to the extraneous noise about MMT, but the noise follows there too. It is just not true that MMT is the problem, the problem is that a small number of people go looking for it and rather than addressing the topic or arguing against it with reason, just produce a lot of meaningless noise.

Some one has revived the MMT thread which is good to see, but that will necessarily inform discussions in other threads about politics, public services, or climate change, in fact anything where government spending is involved. We will have to wait and see if those natural discussions are met with engagement with the issues, or just more meaningless noise.

 

[Seeker_UK]

It should also be noted that if about does provide anything distinctive that require spending, where that spending will come from will be an important question.

That is a long-term strategic issue that will have little or no impact on being attractive to the Electorate in 2024 and, therefore, shouldn't dominates every aspect of the discussions around Labour's current lot.

 

[ks.234]

That is a long-term strategic issue that will have little or no impact on being attractive to the Electorate in 2024 and, therefore, shouldn't dominates every aspect of the discussions around Labour's current lot.

You’re starting an economics discussion of the sort that people are complaining about, and keep blaming me for starting! Happy to have that discussion, but perhaps elsewhere.

 

[klfrs]

Yeah, it's like the New Romantics (silly clothes, floppy hair, make-up) as opposed to the original Romantics (TB, youthful radicalism followed by early death or conservatism).

A good thing about being an original new romantic was you got a whole seat on the bus to yourself.

And it’s a hifi forum FFS.

Is it? I incorrectly thought it's a music, hifi equipment and photo forum.

Not at all and I hope I didn’t give that impression. There are many in off-topic who have a very long connection with the site, who we all know and have an understanding of their audio and music journey and they will never be anything but welcome. These people are the site.

I’m just a little suspicious of those who arrive from nowhere to post many very long posts on often outlying political theories with no discernible interest in the core scope of the site. Why would someone join a hi-fi and music forum to do that?

The music area attracted me. But the off topic area contains much virtually irresistable low hanging, and fully ripe, fruit.

 

[PsB]

How can you discuss the NHS without discussing the reasons why it is defunded? To separate them out is ridiculous.

Once again, I have not suggested that. I don't know why you keep saying that.

Also, I have started threads on Money and GDP in response to the extraneous noise about MMT, but the noise follows there too. It is just not true that MMT is the problem, the problem is that a small number of people go looking for it and rather than addressing the topic or arguing against it with reason, just produce a lot of meaningless noise.

Some one has revived the MMT thread which is good to see, but that will necessarily inform discussions in other threads about politics, public services, or climate change, in fact anything where government spending is involved. We will have to wait and see if those natural discussions are met with engagement with the issues, or just more meaningless noise.

If you start a new MMT thread every time the previous one picks up "noise", this place will soon be swamped.

I'll leave you to it.

 

[gintonic]

A population selected by hi-fi and music but talking about anything

I am not sure that is the case any more. Plenty of people on OT that do not contribute to anything else.

 

[Brian]

Personally, I am glad that pfm doesn’t have a ‘no politics threads’ policy. I have learned a lot about politics, economics, and other things the media doesn’t trouble itself to delve into other than by regurgitating shallow misrepresentations. I think I now understand US politics rather more, which feels important. I’ve also gained interesting, and sometimes unexpected viewpoints on Russia and China, among others. And I have found the MMT discussions fresh and thought-provoking, though lately I haven’t had the time to keep up with them all, they move so fast.

It does seem to me that some of those objecting to the tone and tenor of politics threads have themselves introduced much the same to this thread.

On the question of tone, we should be able to argue respectfully. My take is that if you can’t, you probably don’t have a good enough grasp of your own position to defend it without descending into personal unpleasantness. I do sometimes respond to rudeness and rancour with my own version, but I hope I’m not the initiator in such cases, and often my annoyance is not with the content, but the tone of the post, or the attitude of the poster.

Let me say that deliberate misrepresentation from incorrect inferences is unpleasant, is passive aggression and bullying.

Many can do better, including me.

Regarding the raising of MMT in this thread.
ks.234 said the following in post #15, which was the first and was another reference to exactly what I said earlier. I think people are fed up with this being rolled out time and time again. It sets a tone and it looks set to continue across multiple threads as ‘The Answer’.

I very much think the issue is not so much about politics in general, but discussing the primary observation that taxes don’t fund our government spend in particular. It seems to generate an angry response and sometimes that anger becomes resentment. When I started a thread on MMT I received so many attacks on my personality and my intelligence that I stopped referring to MMT at all, and just started asking people for proof that taxes do fund spending (in a functional manner etc).

 

[Seeker_UK]

You’re starting an economics discussion of the sort that people are complaining about, and keep blaming me for starting! Happy to have that discussion, but perhaps elsewhere.

No I'm not. All I I'm suggesting is that there's a lot we can discuss around the LP and its future success or otherwise w/out it becoming another 'discourse' around macroeconomic theory.

 

[cutting42]

You rather prove my earlier point that the issue is not about politics but something about MMT in particular, but you also demonstrate that such hostility is not based on disagreement, a different opinion, or a rational objection of any sort, it is just baseless sneering for it’s own sake. You have said you know nothing about MMT, you don’t even have a contrary opinion, you don’t challenge anything, you just go straight to sneering.

The real problem with what has gone wrong on pfm is not with people expressing an opinion and others disagreeing with vary degrees of anger and reasonableness, the problem lies with people unable to formulate an argument against a proposition, so go straight to nothing but unsupported passive aggressive snide and sarcasm.

I am probably guilty of an element of this but see it as flippancy rather than sneering but I am sure that is perspective. I have also not done it in the relevant threads so as not to sidetrack them but this is a commentary thread on political threads so I passed comment here. The reason for my unflattering language is to mirror the language I have read from MMT proponents (you are not the person I feel was guilty btw) which has on many occasions been along the lines "well if you don't agree you must be stupid" or "still drinking the Koolaid" or whatever un-enlightened language was used at the time.

I do have a degree of interest in economic theory and am happy to learn but do not have the time to spend hours watching youtube videos, which invariably have an agenda. Likewise the threads on here really do have an evangelical spirit to them and your enthusiasm is apparent. One key poster clearly is incredibly knowledgeable about economics, I am unsure if it is their profession or self taught but for some reason, probably my lack of ability, but I really struggle to follow their explanations which to me seem to get very tangled and jargon littered and it sometimes ends poorly.

Hence my lack of enthusiasm to engage in MMT, not the topic but the style of engagement on here which is the point of this thread.