PFM politics threads

[ks.234]

Let me say that deliberate misrepresentation from incorrect inferences is unpleasant, is passive aggression and bullying.

Many can do better, including me.

Regarding the raising of MMT in this thread.
ks.234 said the following in post #15, which was the first and was another reference to exactly what I said earlier. I think people are fed up with this being rolled out time and time again. It sets a tone and it looks set to continue across multiple threads as ‘The Answer’.

I have covered that, and it should be noted from a full reading of that post that my mention of MMT was not to raise the issue of MMT, but actually to apologise for my reaction to some of the heat.

What is your purpose in raising it again here if not to raise more heat?

If you just want to raise more heat, I will leave you to it.

 

[matthewr]

I am not sure that is the case any more. Plenty of people on OT that do not contribute to anything else.

But how do they end up here? I mean most special interest groups have an equivalent of OT (with exactly the same issues we have here) but I've never felt the need to go off and chat about politics on, say, a golf forum.

 

[sideshowbob]

It's a simple suggestion, nothing to get too worked up about.

But how do they end up here? I mean most special interest groups have an equivalent of OT (with exactly the same issues we have here) but I've never felt the need to go off and chat about politics on, say, a golf forum.

Evangelists in any field really don't see or understand how odd their behaviour appears to others.

 

[gintonic]

I mean most special interest groups have an equivalent of OT (with exactly the same issues we have here)

many dont any more. They have closed that element of their sites, due to the same issues that arise here. I am involved in three other fora, none ever had OT, the other had OT but has banned threads about politics and religion. None of the other fora are hifi related

 

[ks.234]

I am probably guilty of an element of this but see it as flippancy rather than sneering but I am sure that is perspective. I have also not done it in the relevant threads so as not to sidetrack them but this is a commentary thread on political threads so I passed comment here. The reason for my unflattering language is to mirror the language I have read from MMT proponents (you are not the person I feel was guilty btw) which has on many occasions been along the lines "well if you don't agree you must be stupid" or "still drinking the Koolaid" or whatever un-enlightened language was used at the time.

I do have a degree of interest in economic theory and am happy to learn but do not have the time to spend hours watching youtube videos, which invariably have an agenda. Likewise the threads on here really do have an evangelical spirit to them and your enthusiasm is apparent. One key poster clearly is incredibly knowledgeable about economics, I am unsure if it is their profession or self taught but for some reason, probably my lack of ability, but I really struggle to follow their explanations which to me seem to get very tangled and jargon littered and it sometimes ends poorly.

Hence my lack of enthusiasm to engage in MMT, not the topic but the style of engagement on here which is the point of this thread.

Thank you for a considered reply. I think part of the problem is that when you have had both your sanity and intelligence questioned for coming to a conclusion that goes against accepted norms, sometimes the response is tetchy when it seems to be happening again in, shall we call it flippant manner. I’m sure I have done it myself and I have apologised for it several times.

My central point remains though, that yes it is a difficult topic, but worth it if you bear with it. But just dismissing it with flippancy is not engaging.

I’m off to the newly revived MMT thread, hope to see you there with a question or two

 

[ks.234]

No I'm not. All I I'm suggesting is that there's a lot we can discuss around the LP and its future success or otherwise w/out it becoming another 'discourse' around macroeconomic theory.

I would argue that any success has to be around an improvement to public services and tackling climate change, and that discussion cannot take place without a discussion about funding, which is a discussion about macroeconomics, but again, this is probably not the place to have that discussion.

 

[Colin L]

MMT. I know its Modern Monetary Theory, but Magic Money Tree seems much more appropriate, especially given the ongoing nonsense from the fantabulists on the Tory Love Island show.

 

[ks.234]

MMT. I know its Modern Monetary Theory, but Magic Money Tree seems much more appropriate, especially given the ongoing nonsense from the fantabulists on Tory Love Island show.

MODS!!!

 

[Seeker_UK]

But just dismissing it with flippancy is not engaging.

Presenting the case in a way that some forum members have an issue with is not conducive to engagement, regardless of how right or not the content is. An inability or refusal to see or address that is as much a part of the problem as the snidey and flippant response.

 

[kensalriser]

Inevitable that this thread would become a mirror image of threads in the original complaint!

There's something about the politics threads that seems to really trigger people with OCD tendencies and that's when you get these bouts of repetitive, circular, verbose back and forth that becomes increasingly attritional. A little self-awareness and reflection would go along way, I think. And perhaps taking note when friends tell you you're acting like a bit of a dick; don't argue back that you're right, it doesn't matter if you're right, just take the advice and stop acting like a dick.

 

[ks.234]

Presenting the case in a way that some forum members have an issue with is not conducive to engagement, regardless of how right or not the content is. An inability or refusal to see or address that is as much a part of the problem as the snidey and flippant response.

Not at all. If I say something that is not understood, just say so, why be snidely and flippant? If the response to something not understood is snidely and flippant, how can you expect a serious response.

You seem to be suggesting that if someone does not understand a post, a snidely and flippant response is appropriate, I very much feel it is not.

Either engage with the topic by asking genuine questions or formulate a rogust argument against the proposition, or don’t. But responses that are just snidely and flippant are very much the problem.

 

[ks.234]

Inevitable that this thread would become a mirror image of threads in the original complaint!

There's something about the politics threads that seems to really trigger people with OCD tendencies and that's when you get these bouts of repetitive, circular, verbose back and forth that becomes increasingly attritional. A little self-awareness and reflection would go along way, I think. And perhaps taking note when friends tell you you're acting like a bit of a dick; don't argue back that you're right, it doesn't matter if you're right, just take the advice and stop acting like a dick.

Sound advise, hope you’ve been giving it to your friends

 

[Tony L]

many dont any more. They have closed that element of their sites, due to the same issues that arise here. I am involved in three other fora, none ever had OT, the other had OT but has banned threads about politics and religion. None of the other fora are hifi related

It is the easy way out. I’m a member of Steve Hoffman’s forum and I like the place a lot. He has an absolute ban on politics and religion, and I can really see why as it is a very busy site and every now and again you get a glimpse of the very worst of American far-right politics there (which is poles away from Steve himself). I remember making the mistake of posting on a soon to be deleted hunting thread from a predictably animal-rights centred perspective and got the sort of attack one would expect from a culture that seems to accept AR15 ownership as part of life. I really see why Steve came to the decision he did.

pfm is far smaller. I’m likely far more politically motivated (albeit as an outlier, I have no party or tribe). I do use the site as a platform. If Woody Guthrie could write “This Machine Kills Fascists” on his guitar I can do the same on my little corner of the internet. There is no prospect of closing political discussion here given the UK’s ongoing trajectory downwards and rightwards. As stated earlier I will do anything I can to counter that, no matter how small that may be. I’m convinced pfm at least does some good both in spreading ideas and raising money for protest groups and resistance. It will continue.

 

[Brian]

I have covered that, and it should be noted from a full reading of that post that my mention of MMT was not to raise the issue of MMT, but actually to apologise for my reaction to some of the heat.

What is your purpose in raising it again here if not to raise more heat?

If you just want to raise more heat, I will leave you to it.

I’m not interested in ‘heat’, I just wanted to put the record straight because another member had clearly missed what you posted in #15.

It really isn’t simply about the letters ‘MMT’, imo. It is the whole thing. Even now, you refuse to accept there can be any discussion about Labour without insisting people talk about economics and lies, eg the national credit card. I just think quite a few are fed up of it, it’s not personal and nothing about turning up heat. If anything I’m trying to help you see what is going on because you really aren’t seeing the wood for the trees, imo.

Anyway, I will leave it at that because your post above is a sign of where you are trying to take this exchange. I’m interested in reasonable and friendly chat, discussion etc, not argument and bickering.

 

[Bjork67]

Just scraped a load of lincoln taties.

 

[Marchbanks]

Just scraped a load of lincoln taties.

There aren’t enough threads on the subject of lincoln taties (whatever they may be.) Perhaps you should start one for scraping and one for scrubbing?

 

[Seeker_UK]

There aren’t enough threads on the subject of lincoln taties

I think I have one of his albums. Stax or Atco, I think.

 

[miktec]

There aren’t enough threads on the subject of lincoln taties (whatever they may be.) Perhaps you should start one for scraping and one for scrubbing?

Lincolnshire tatties are the best there are .... make far tastier chips than the ones I had in Wales for instance ....

(... or is that too political?)

 

[tonerei]

I think Brexit brought me into the off topic area. The foolishness of it and what it meant going forward annoyed me so much.

The only saving grace is some of the other threads in this area that got my attention and the funny individuals who post so many witty anecdotes. The former bank official born in March in the wine thread comes to mind.

 

[Sue Pertwee-Tyr]

Let me say that deliberate misrepresentation from incorrect inferences is unpleasant, is passive aggression and bullying.

Many can do better, including me.

I've no doubt I can also improve my posting style, but the reason I put you on ignore some considerable time ago was your habit, as above, of accusing me of deliberate misrepresentation from incorrect inferences. I have little doubt that this reply to mine was another such.

I have said many times to you that if I have misinterpreted a post, then this is never deliberate. The fault may be mine, or it may be a post which didn't clearly make its point, but the accusation of deliberately misunderstanding so as to troll, is offensive. You have never accepted this, apparently preferring to consider nobody could ever misunderstand your posts, which are self-evidently blameless. You accused me of this so often it obliged me to put you on ignore as defending myself against these accusations was spoiling my enjoyment of the discussions on here.

But in the spirit of this thread's OP, I'd like to re-engage - I think you make some worthwhile points and I'm sure I miss some interesting insights. But I will not tolerate your refusal to accept that if I misunderstand a point, I am not doing so in bad faith. If you're happy to wipe the slate clean, then so am I.