advertisement


Brexit: give me a positive effect... XI

Status
Not open for further replies.
kabayiri said:
Well, should we be able to source labour from any part of the globe, or show a preference to EU citizens?
If it's basic skilled labour, you can find it much cheaper elsewhere, and you don't have to offer residency rights.
Click to expand...

SteveS1 said:
You mean like we always have and still do?

Not to be confused with the ease of such movememt that you can introduce when you have wider agreements on trade and services with groups or nations. What's your position on those such as say Priti Patel for example, who having benefitted from a welcoming environment handsomely themselves, then wish to pull up the ladder after them?
Click to expand...
This is a question that has been asked before. Whataboutism. Again.
 
Re movement of labour:
eternumviti said:
But can it. Youth unemployment in some parts of the EU is startlingly high. Spain, Greece, Sweden, Luxembourg, Portugal, the figures really aren't good.
Click to expand...
Yes, it was high years ago too. Greece has always had high unemployment, especially in remote areas and islands.
Some of the blame for this must lie with the wretched Euro.
Click to expand...
Says you. Let's see some evidence from someone who understands economics and has done the sums.

And business is fickle. People are not merely commodities, they have lives, roots. The EU favours business, labour is a commodity.
Click to expand...
People move with opportunities and according to where they want to live. I moved to France aged 35 to live and work, did that for 3 years, came back. I've worked and lived in the N of England, the S, I've worked in Belgium, France, Ireland, Scotland, Wales. In the first 10 years of my working life, which was pre EU, I had 6 jobs as far apart as London, Swindon, Grimsby, Nottingham and Leeds. People move, sometimes because they want to, sometimes because they have to in order to find work. That's just a fact of life.

Look again at the labour situation in German meat processing factories. Conditions are grim, and the EU doesn't offer any real protection for these people.
Click to expand...
Are they grim? I'd be surprised. I've not been in a German meat plant. Ireland yes, and it was fine. French factories, a few, all fine. I've been in a German food machinery manufacturing plant, that was spectacular. I'd work there, anytime. As for the EU not offering protection, I don't believe you. If anything they were and are over protective. The Working Time regs have restricted overtime, which has given people more leisure time as intended but cut their income, inevitably. Some people needed the money more than the free time. I did when I was a student on summer jobs, worked 7 days a week. Not allowed to do that now.
 
stevec67 said:
Re movement of labour:
Yes, it was high years ago too. Greece has always had high unemployment, especially in remote areas and islands.
Says you. Let's see some evidence from someone who understands economics and has done the sums.

People move with opportunities and according to where they want to live. I moved to France aged 35 to live and work, did that for 3 years, came back. I've worked and lived in the N of England, the S, I've worked in Belgium, France, Ireland, Scotland, Wales. In the first 10 years of my working life, which was pre EU, I had 6 jobs as far apart as London, Swindon, Grimsby, Nottingham and Leeds. People move, sometimes because they want to, sometimes because they have to in order to find work. That's just a fact of life.

Are they grim? I'd be surprised. I've not been in a German meat plant. Ireland yes, and it was fine. French factories, a few, all fine. I've been in a German food machinery manufacturing plant, that was spectacular. I'd work there, anytime. As for the EU not offering protection, I don't believe you. If anything they were and are over protective. The Working Time regs have restricted overtime, which has given people more leisure time as intended but cut their income, inevitably. Some people needed the money more than the free time. I did when I was a student on summer jobs, worked 7 days a week. Not allowed to do that now.
Click to expand...

For someone who is so widely travelled (and travailed) and assertively, indeed aggressively, absolutist about the righteousness of the EU, you are shockingly naive about the Euro. I suggest you do some reading, or better still, if you know any economists...

On the German meat production, some not so tasty pickings from an eminent, pink, pro-EU newspaper to chew on;

https://www.ft.com/content/7b77ec15-7384-42d0-9da0-76c4b7f0872b

https://www.ft.com/content/0bbb1754-6812-11e3-8ada-00144feabdc0

https://www.ft.com/content/5284d0d3-8c27-4e63-8790-7df0f8760581
 
eternumviti said:
I might have a stab at it at some point, once you've explained to me why, as you assert, it is necessary.
Click to expand...
I’m not sure I’d argue it is necessary purely in economic terms. As a broader right, in terms similar to the Charter of Fundamental Rights, I’d argue it is a right conferred by EU citizenship and, moreover, one which will aid cohesion and community within member states.
 
eternumviti said:
What do you consider to be a disaster? The Euro has been creating wastelands in parts of the med fringe for most of its existence. The 25% hit to the Greek economy was undoubtedly pretty disastrous for the people who were forced by the EU Troika to endure it.
Click to expand...

Colin keeps talking about the EU heading for disaster, let him enlighten us as to what he means!
 
Well, possibly. Aside from the reservations I've already set out, I have some difficulty, despite having been one, with the concept of 'EU citizenship'. You'd have to believe that the EU were a sovereign entity in its own right to accept there can be such a thing. Needless to say, I don't. Happy to be a European though.
 
eternumviti said:
Well, possibly. Aside from the reservations I've already set out, I have some difficulty, despite having been one, with the concept of 'EU citizenship'. You'd have to believe that the EU were a sovereign entity in its own right to accept there can be such a thing. Needless to say, I don't. Happy to be a European though.
Click to expand...
I think you are splitting constitutional hairs here EV.
 
Well, I was a remainer, but I’ve lived in Europe for the last few years, and the EU’s culpable incompetence in procuring sufficient vaccines for its people, and it’s lack of investment in vaccines, should give all of you in the UK food for thought, not to mention reasons to be cheerful. The UK has vaccinated five times more people than Europe, pals my age in London were vaccinated weeks ago, I haven’t even the hint of a possibility as to when I might get my jag, but it looks like months. So, you want a positive effect of Brexit? Ursula von der Leyen has got nothing to do with you. You think Boris and Gove and all the other twerps are useless? She takes uselessness to beyond an art form. And resigning doesn’t even occur to her.
 
AndyU said:
Well, I was a remainer, but I’ve lived in Europe for the last few years, and the EU’s culpable incompetence in procuring sufficient vaccines for its people, and it’s lack of investment in vaccines, should give all of you in the UK food for thought, not to mention reasons to be cheerful. The UK has vaccinated five times more people than Europe, pals my age in London were vaccinated weeks ago, I haven’t even the hint of a possibility as to when I might get my jag, but it looks like months. So, you want a positive effect of Brexit? Ursula von der Leyen has got nothing to do with you. You think Boris and Gove and all the other twerps are useless? She takes uselessness to beyond an art form. And resigning doesn’t even occur to her.
Click to expand...

No doubt the longer this drags on the worse it looks for Von Der Leyen. Often the problem when you have somebody as strong as Merkel in power for such a long time. Look what happened to ManU after Fergie left and Leeds after Don Revie :D. Don't forget the NI mess up. She is on borrowed time, I hope whoever replaces her is well up for the job. EU is hampered by the inability to go to full federal control. But nowhere in the world with the exception of New Zealand looks to be in particularly good shape at the moment. Biden will look a 100 by the time he finishes his 4yrs in the US.

Certainly if it doesn't equalize over time it will be a big bang of the drum every night for Bojo at his briefings. I am surprised he hasn't had a daily clap for himself and Hancock for his success with the roll out.

Covid has been a blessing in disguise for Bojo as it hides the disaster of Brexit. It buys him time to fix the issues. It will be interesting to see if he uses this time wisely.
 
AndyU said:
Well, I was a remainer, but I’ve lived in Europe for the last few years, and the EU’s culpable incompetence in procuring sufficient vaccines for its people, and it’s lack of investment in vaccines, should give all of you in the UK food for thought, not to mention reasons to be cheerful. The UK has vaccinated five times more people than Europe, pals my age in London were vaccinated weeks ago, I haven’t even the hint of a possibility as to when I might get my jag, but it looks like months. So, you want a positive effect of Brexit? Ursula von der Leyen has got nothing to do with you. You think Boris and Gove and all the other twerps are useless? She takes uselessness to beyond an art form. And resigning doesn’t even occur to her.
Click to expand...
Did you tell your go you left? I did not and will be back for my shot as soon as possible.
 
NeilR said:
would you care to put a timescale on this disaster?

You brexiters have been predicting disaster since the Euro inception at the turn of the century, but two decades later, it hasn’t happened.

So is disaster happening in 5 years? 10 years? 20 years? 50 years?

Give it your best shot.
Click to expand...
How long the EU will remain in its present form as it trends towards a federal USE is any ones guess; one thing we can almost be certain of is it will not reform and it will not reduce costs.
Unemployment will rise after Covid and on top of that people have become accustomed to buying on line; automation ensures less jobs are needed to service this retail market. The same with buying cars, do we need garages, if online cost is cheaper people will be tempted. Within 20 years AI will make white van man and truck drivers obsolete. Do we need to even buy products from Europe, in some cases no, buy direct from the manufacturers in China online.
 
AndyU said:
Well, I was a remainer, but I’ve lived in Europe for the last few years, and the EU’s culpable incompetence in procuring sufficient vaccines for its people, and it’s lack of investment in vaccines, should give all of you in the UK food for thought, not to mention reasons to be cheerful. The UK has vaccinated five times more people than Europe, pals my age in London were vaccinated weeks ago, I haven’t even the hint of a possibility as to when I might get my jag, but it looks like months. So, you want a positive effect of Brexit? Ursula von der Leyen has got nothing to do with you. You think Boris and Gove and all the other twerps are useless? She takes uselessness to beyond an art form. And resigning doesn’t even occur to her.
Click to expand...



It is true that this has been a mess, but It is worth looking a little deeper and Brexit doesn't actually figure in the vaccine authorisation or procurement, unless the UK had opted (when part of the EU) to be included. The choice would have been there not to be part of it.

The UK got a month’s head start on the EU by approving the Pfizer vaccine at the start of December and then AstraZeneca’s at the end of that month. To do that we had to accept the terms offered by the pharmaceutical companies, both in paying much more (nearly double) and less publically, waiving civil liability in the event of adverse effects. Hopefully there will be none, it certainly looks like it - but that is something that could easily have backfired.

The strategy of extending the time lag between first and the second doses, may well pay off beyond the speed of delivering a single dose quickly to more people if the logistics of rollout supply and the efficacy of the vaccine is not impaired by it. Let's hope so, but it's a risk that has been taken. The roll out here has thankfully been given to the NHS and not the people Johnson and Gove and co gave our "world beating" test and trace to. They are in europe handled by health ministries and have no EU involvement – our NHS structure helps makes this more efficient here than in most European countries whatever the status.

The EU does not have, and never will have, the flexibility of a country: it is not even a federation like the US but a simple confederation, which only has the powers that its member states are willing to give it. There was a lot of anxiety to avoid a repeat of the free-for-all that we saw last March on masks and medical equipment, as member states tried to outbid each other, Germany and France blocked consignments of PPE leaving their territories, and Italy was exposed. So when it came to vaccines, the 27 agreed very early on, under the leadership of Berlin and Paris, to pool procurement. All agreed to guarantee that each would have equal access, proportionate to their population size, and above all, that each would apply the same vaccine purchase conditions. Otherwise, how would, say, Luxembourg or Finland have fared against the pharmaceutical giants?

Of the 160 laboratories that sought to conclude deals with the EU, only six were awarded totalling 2.3bn shots. Of these , three obtained authorisation from the European Medicines Agency (EMA), which took the time required to ensure that the vaccines were safe. Two more are expected to follow. All of which amounts to a huge collective success in terms of securing supplies. Of course, Germany or France acting alone, as the UK did, might have been able to secure enough vaccines to meet their needs, but certainly not under conditions as favourable. Smaller countries would have been left high and dry.

Make no mistake the EU should have moved with more speed. But they would have had to concede more to big pharma, and would have been roundly criticised for doing so. It is true that the EU made a massive blunder and you're right it can be blamed on the European Commission president, Ursula von der Leyen. By rushing through curbs on vaccine exports after its spat with AZ, out of sheer clumsiness, managed to reignite tensions arising from the Brexit arrangements for Northern Ireland.

This was a ridiculous mistake and it happened apparently because Ursula von der Leyen communicated exclusively with her German entourage. Had she kept the rest of the institution in the loop, suspending a key part of the Northern Ireland protocol would never have happened. This was indeed reversed and quite rightly, but where I disagree with you is that the UK's response to similar has never, unless you can point me to one, involved admitting a mistake and reversing it swiftly. Indeed, had it followed Johnson's example they would have continued to deny it until forced and then doubled down on it. See threats to break International Law over an agreement, dealing with Cummings, Patel, Williamson and so on.

Meanwhile a UK roll out of single dose vaccines has been very impressive, helped by use of the NHS and associated organisations that the same people who want the credit now have been underfunding and undervaluing for years. No doubt we will only see after the pandemic and all the information is available what worked best and what the impacts of all actions from the start was on each country.
 
Last edited:
SteveS1 said:
It is true that this has been a mess, but It is worth looking a little deeper and Brexit doesn't actually figure in the vaccine authorisation or procurement, unless the UK had opted (when part of the EU) to be included. The choice would have been there not to be.

The UK got a month’s head start on the EU by approving the Pfizer vaccine at the start of December and then AstraZeneca’s at the end of that month. To do that we had to accept the terms offered by the pharmaceutical companies, both in paying much more (nearly double) and less publically, waiving civil liability in the event of adverse effects. Hopefully there will be none, it certainly looks like it - but that is something that could easily have backfired.

The strategy of extending the time lag between first and the second doses, may well pay off beyond the speed of delivering a single dose quickly to more people if the logistics of rollout supply and the efficacy of the vaccine is not impaired by it. Let's hope so, but it's a risk that has been taken. The roll out here has thankfully been given to the NHS and not the people Johnson and Gove and co gave our "world beating" test and trace to. They are in europe handled by health ministries and have no EU involvement – our NHS structure helps makes this more efficient here than in most European countries whatever the status.

The EU does not have, and never will have, the flexibility of a country: it is not even a federation like the US but a simple confederation, which only has the powers that its member states are willing to give it. There was a lot of anxiety to avoid a repeat of the free-for-all that we saw last March on masks and medical equipment, as member states tried to outbid each other, Germany and France blocked consignments of PPE leaving their territories, and Italy was exposed.

So when it came to vaccines, the 27 agreed very early on, under the leadership of Berlin and Paris, to pool procurement. All agreed to guarantee that each would have equal access, proportionate to their population size, and above all, that each would apply the same vaccine purchase conditions. Otherwise, how would, say, Luxembourg or Finland have fared against the pharmaceutical giants?

The commission was delegated, under the close control of the member states, to negotiate contracts with the most promising laboratories: a series of bets as everyone was having to make. Where the EU approach went badly wrong was to set out the demands it wanted met in exchange for financial aid aimed at speeding up production (€2.7bn). However, those demands did include refusing to exempt laboratories from civil liability, insisting that the companies owned production lines on EU territory - deemed a necessary precaution at a time of temporary border closures and reasonable prices. Not all these conditions were imposed by the US, the UK, Canada or Israel.

Of the 160 laboratories that sought to conclude deals with the EU, only six were awarded totalling 2.3bn shots. Of these , three obtained authorisation from the European Medicines Agency (EMA), which took the time required to ensure that the vaccines were safe. Two more are expected to follow. All of which amounts to a huge collective success in terms of securing supplies. Of course, Germany or France acting alone, as the UK did, might have been able to secure enough vaccines to meet their needs, but certainly not under conditions as favourable. Smaller countries would have been left high and dry.

Solidarity is the driver here and it has implemented it without complaint, not only among its citizens but also with regard to the rest of the world. African countries in particular will benefit from the surplus jabs ordered by the EU. Vaccinating the UK or Europe’s population is of limited value. Make no mistake the EU should have moved with more speed. But they would have had to concede more to big pharma, and would have been roundly criticised for doing so.

It is true that the EU made one massive blunder and you're right it can be blamed on the European Commission president, Ursula von der Leyen. By rushing through curbs on vaccine exports after its spat with AZ, out of sheer clumsiness, managed to reignite tensions arising from the Brexit arrangements for Northern Ireland.

This was a ridiculous mistake and it happened apparently because Ursula von der Leyen communicated exclusively with her German entourage. Had she kept the rest of the institution in the loop, suspending a key part of the Northern Ireland protocol would never have happened. This was indeed reversed and quite rightly, but where I disagree with you is that the UK's response to similar has never, unless you can point me to one, involved admitting a mistake and reversing it swiftly. Indeed, had it followed Johnson's example they would have continued to deny it until forced and then doubled down on it. See threats to break International Law over an agreement, dealing with Cummings, Patel, Williamson and so on.

Meanwhile a UK roll out of single dose vaccines has been very impressive, helped by use of the NHS and associated organisations the same people have been underfunding and undervaluing for years. No doubt we will only see after the pandemic and all the information is available what worked best and what the impacts of all actions from the start was on each country.
Click to expand...
Small is beautiful, well done team Boris, my first jab is this Thursday.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.


advertisement


Back
Top