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Way to go Greta

Joe P said:
guest,

It sure is. Nature is resilient and it does bounce back, but the difference now is that the environmental onslaught is multifaceted, continuous and worsening.

Even such planetary-level devastations as asteroid collisions have the decency to FO for hundreds of millions of years between events.

Joe
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Am with you on natures usage of fire as a management tool, and that it is actually needed for regenerative process some parts of flora and fauna. And things do bounce back. Although the dinosaurs probably felt quite confident on their tenure of the planet for approx 175 million years, before the Chicxclub meteorite intervened...

Without erring towards any sentiment of denial (back in yer boxes Fishies;)), the fire season in Auz in a regular thing - a convergence of drought, extreme heat and strong 60mph winds. It's a tinderbox in a perfect storm for wild fires.

What I am trying to grasp, is that given we do accept and agree with the meteorologists that temp in Aus has risen 1 Deg C since 1920 - how much actual difference has that made to the tinderbox effect? If av temps are normally say 40 deg in their summer, that of course parches the ground. Does 50 deg do it any more? It cant help for sure, but Jan Feb are also the windiest months down under and this seems a constant (cursory Google)?

Are the fires wholly due to climate change? If it is a factor, how significant, in the context of the other elements in play , is it for the scale of the problem?
 
I've been interested in Global Dimming lately as more research and reports are available. Between aerosols and contrails it deserves serious consideration.

A new paper suggests that the amount of warming masked by aerosols is around 1 degree celsius. That would mean we've already warmed 2.2C since pre-industrial. If we reduce emissions, we will experience rapid warming as aerosols disappear from the atmosphere and along with it the cooling effect.

https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1029/2019MS001628

A good primer on this effect (during the 3 day grounding of all aviation after 9-11):

https://www.greenmedinfo.com/blog/artificial-weather-revealed-post-9-11-flight-groundings

-
 
Fatmarley said:
The Daily Mail on Facebook are diverting the blame on to arsonists, and looking at all the comments, people believe it.

Edit: It was The Sun (Could be Daily Mail too though)

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/10693...Social&utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1578436895

https://www.theguardian.com/austral...ggerating-arsons-role-in-australian-bushfires
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There are indeed "firebugs" as they're often called Downunder - when I lived in Melbourne, there were a number of arrests every summer. However, most fires have natural causes (such as lightning strikes). Indeed, fire is a natural part of the bush - as guest mentioned in a previous post, some plants actually depend on the occasional fire. It is quite amazing how quickly a blackened, apparently lifeless mess can spring back to life in a matter of weeks. However, I think these fires are the worst since Jim Cook sailed into Botany Bay, and their effects will be so much longer lasting.
 
guest.

guest said:
Without erring towards any sentiment of denial (back in yer boxes Fishies;)), the fire season in Auz in a regular thing - a convergence of drought, extreme heat and strong 60mph winds. It's a tinderbox in a perfect storm for wild fires.
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An extreme drought with a record high temp in 2019 did it. The rainfall pattern over time is mostly stochastic, but the temperature trend most definitely is not.

HP3w8QZ.png


Keep in mind, this is not a one off in one place on Earth. It's happening all over the globe again and again. Remember that record ice melt in Greenland last fall?

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smar...ng-125-billion-tons-ice-single-day-180972808/

How many more dots are needed before people can see the picture? The case made by climate change skeptics and deniers never was strong, certainly not since the 1980s. Now it's an evidence-free case made by the apologists, the stupid, the ignorant and Republicans. Sorry, the last was covered by the first three.

Joe
 
....I think people can see what’s happening. Whether they are motivated, blind or feel impotent to do anything, for me is an ethical not an L/R political discussion. Although I aknowlege the inevitability if that, since it is both resources and people of all creeds and colours. who must be swayed.

Did a quick google on top 10 polluting countries interms of CO2 and plastics pollution . Interesting when you look at the geo political and demographics of both. It is surprising. I’ll let folk find their own facts, since I have little knowledge :)rolleyes:), but suffice to say, it is not the sole problem of white folk in the western world. The problem is far more widespread and focussed in Asia-Pacific that the west (US excepted as they are #2 CO2 poluter.

The dialogue to be complete, must turn to and factor in population growth and management. Humans have doubled in 50 years, if do same in next 50..,,
 
guest,

I agree that climate change shouldn’t be a left/right issue, but if you examine source of the noise, distraction, lies, obfuscation, misunderstanding and outright ****ing bullshit, it comes overwhelmingly from the right.

Joe
 
guest said:
....I think people can see what’s happening. Whether they are motivated, blind or feel impotent to do anything, for me is an ethical not an L/R political discussion. Although I aknowlege the inevitability if that, since it is both resources and people of all creeds and colours. who must be swayed.

Did a quick google on top 10 polluting countries interms of CO2 and plastics pollution . Interesting when you look at the geo political and demographics of both. It is surprising. I’ll let folk find their own facts, since I have little knowledge :)rolleyes:), but suffice to say, it is not the sole problem of white folk in the western world. The problem is far more widespread and focussed in Asia-Pacific that the west (US excepted as they are #2 CO2 poluter.

The dialogue to be complete, must turn to and factor in population growth and management. Humans have doubled in 50 years, if do same in next 50..,,
Click to expand...

Future significant population growth is expected to be in Africa, India, Pakistan & Indonesia. There should be free condoms on every street corner.
China and Japan will offset some of that growth.
 
Joe P said:
guest,

I agree that climate change shouldn’t be a left/right issue, but if you examine source of the noise, distraction, lies, obfuscation, misunderstanding and outright ****ing bullshit, it comes overwhelmingly from the right.

Joe
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Well, they are the ones more firmly in the pocket of the fossil fuel industry. There comes to mind Nikita Khruschev's famous comment that, when it came time to hang the last capitalist, the capitalist would sell him the rope.
 
tones,

It's much broader than being in the pocket of the fossil fuel industry or worshipping free market capitalism.

The response to climate change has to be global, and to be global nations will need to cooperate and compromise, as well as tax and regulate. Cooperation, compromise, taxation and regulation are anathema to the right. Look at the rise of deregulation, nationalism, Brexit and the general moronification of politics.

Jeez, here in Ontario we have a provincial government that's baulking at the federal government's carbon tax. Can't even get people in the same country to cooperate and compromise, tax and regulate.

Joe
 
Joe P said:
guest,

I agree that climate change shouldn’t be a left/right issue, but if you examine source of the noise, distraction, lies, obfuscation, misunderstanding and outright ****ing bullshit, it comes overwhelmingly from the right.

Joe
Click to expand...

I hear you and can recall back to my first awareness of geo-political climate issues when Bush Snr refused to sign the UN Kyoto Agreement on CO2 back in the early 90s.

But, look at top 5 CO2 polluting countries:

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2019...ies-create-most-of-the-world-s-co2-emissions/

(Numbers seem credible)

In order:

China, US, India, Russia, Japan. China produces nearly twice as much CO2 as even the US. combined they make 40% of global CO2 emissions.

That's far from being overwhelmingly all Right-wing countries.

Plastics Polluters
This is more telling. Top 10 global corporate plastic waste producers:

https://www.greenpeace.org/internat...e-flooding-the-planet-with-throwaway-plastic/

Coca Cola , PepsiCo, Nestle, Danone etc. All right wing by dint of being Global corps? Id say they operate above that, but do know how to lobby.

But when you look at plastcic polluters of the oceans by geography we see a different top 10, China excepted a sthey top every chart.

https://www.statista.com/chart/12211/the-countries-polluting-the-oceans-the-most/

China, Indonesia, Philippines, Vietnam, Sri Lanka. Most definitely not Right wing.

It's an easy and convenient cop out blaming the Right.
 
guest,

I'm not saying that right-wing countries (whatever that means) are the top CO2 emitters. I'm saying that right wingers are the top climate change deniers and bullshitters.

With exceedingly few exceptions, if you come across a leader, politician, journalist, commentator, company exec, or think tank (sic) researcher who says climate change is bunk or if it is happening it's just a natural process that humans have no part of, you can be 99.9% certain that the person is right wing or *very* right wing.

Joe

P.S. Look in this thread and others for more evidence if you need it. The deniers on pfm are right wing or exceedingly right wing. They also happen to be wrong, very wrong, on this issue.
 
Joe P said:
guest,

I'm not saying that right-wing countries (whatever that means) are the top CO2 emitters. I'm saying that right wingers are the top climate change deniers.

With exceedingly few exceptions, if you come across a leader, politician, journalist, commentator, company exec, or think tank (sic) researcher who says climate change is bunk or if it is happening it's just a natural process that humans have no part of, you can be 99.9% certain that the person is right wing or *very* right wing.

Joe
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Then we are agreed. I took your post above to be referring to climate change propagators (protagonists?) as opposed to climate change deniers - who, although I haven't actually met many, would imo fall into right wing of politics or the centre of global corporates.

BTW by Right Wing Countries - I meant defining a country's geo politics with reference to the L/R persuasions of their respective political leads, and also the governance of any global mega-corps

To me, its the 'doers of ' rather than the 'deniers' of climate change, who need tackling first.
 
guest,

We have to lower our CO2 emissions, and live off nature's interest rather that its capital (terms righties should get), but the spanner in any progress on the issue is coming from the deniers, noisemakers and bullshitters. That they just happen to be right or very right I'm sure is just a coincidence.

Joe
 
guest said:
I hear you and can recall back to my first awareness of geo-political climate issues when Bush Snr refused to sign the UN Kyoto Agreement on CO2 back in the early 90s.

But, look at top 5 CO2 polluting countries:

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2019...ies-create-most-of-the-world-s-co2-emissions/

(Numbers seem credible)

In order:

China, US, India, Russia, Japan. China produces nearly twice as much CO2 as even the US. combined they make 40% of global CO2 emissions.

That's far from being overwhelmingly all Right-wing countries.

Plastics Polluters
This is more telling. Top 10 global corporate plastic waste producers:

https://www.greenpeace.org/internat...e-flooding-the-planet-with-throwaway-plastic/

Coca Cola , PepsiCo, Nestle, Danone etc. All right wing by dint of being Global corps? Id say they operate above that, but do know how to lobby.

But when you look at plastcic polluters of the oceans by geography we see a different top 10, China excepted a sthey top every chart.

https://www.statista.com/chart/12211/the-countries-polluting-the-oceans-the-most/

China, Indonesia, Philippines, Vietnam, Sri Lanka. Most definitely not Right wing.

It's an easy and convenient cop out blaming the Right.
Click to expand...

I just Googled China and there were lots of people saying China IS a Right Wing country... Think I'll check the others when I have time...
 
Fatmarley said:
I just Googled China and there were lots of people saying China IS a Right Wing country... Think I'll check the others when I have time...
Click to expand...

Well done you.

Right wing communists notwithstanding, I think Joe understood my points and their fuller context within the OP and developing dialogue of climate change.
 
Joe P said:
guest,

We have to lower our CO2 emissions, and live off nature's interest rather that its capital (terms righties should get), but the spanner in any progress on the issue is coming from the deniers, noisemakers and bullshitters. That they just happen to be right or very right I'm sure is just a coincidence.

Joe
Click to expand...

You forgot to mention the greedy entrepeneurs and investers/shareholders and the whole finance system and the corrupt politicians and older people like my baby boomer parents who just don't care nor want to change their habits...
 
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