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Should Scotland be an independent country?

Should Scotland be an independent country?

  • Total voters
    132
  • Poll closed .
3 of you have posted but not a single one of you addressed what I was asking so I'll ask again. I wasn't claiming Labour could win all of the seats in Scotland, just stating a fact that Scotland does not have to vote SNP to stop brexit.

Have a go at it, go on....

How can the SNP stop brexit? Are you suggesting they team up with the LibDems? :D:D

Why should Labour acede to a 2020 referendum rather than the SNP drop its demand for a referendum until later? Last Friday on QT, Sturgeon said clearly she is very concerned about the UK under a tory govt and cares deeply about the UK. This could be the chance for her to show it, she might be able to help Labour oust the tories and benefit the entire UK. What is it you folk have against that?
 
Labour are never going to win a majority under Jeremy Corbyn- they’ll be lucky to achieve a minority govt with SNP cooperation, nor will they win back the dozens of seats they lost in Scotland to the SNP, not in my lifetime. No one up here trusts Corbyn on Brexit, he’s had more positions on it than the Kama Sutra. His government needs to halt Brexit and have a commission on it. Maybe consider a referendum in two years but not while the new government sorts out Britain’s dreadful social and economic problems. Sound familiar?
 
jtrade said:
Having taken a week’s internet break - most refreshing - and not read the thread, my answer to the thread title :

If U.K. remains in EU, definitely not (numbers just don’t add up anywhichway).

If U.K. leaves, then yes if, & only if, EU membership can be assured (unfortunately, I don’t see how this can happen & note NS has not explained this in a remotely convincing way).

But if Scottish independence happens as per the second scenario above, I’ll apply for a passport immediately.
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All scenarios are risky but we are now having to decide which is scenario is less awful. Independence, with England outside the EU will be very damaging to Scotland. A measure of the likely damage will soon be obvious- Ireland is going to take an economic hammering when the Uk, it’s closest and biggest export market leaves the EU. I imagine the Scottish Government will be watching what measures the EU puts in place to mitigate that. I think the case for independence is better with both England and Scotland still in the EU but to go back to a point I’ve already made- independence will ultimately be ordained by England.
 
1/3 It’s interesting that the same rhetoric the hardline Brexit people use (the thrill of freedom, the great unknown, no longer under vassalage, we have no idea what happens when we leave, everything will be fine and so on) This same rhetoric is derided by the brexiters if it’s used by anyone wanting independence in Scotland. There are two-faces to the English. Using it for Brexit is ok, but use the same to justify Scottish independence and the Brexiters suddenly, completely lose their shit.

But, the good news is any Indyref2 will have a thoroughly thought-through referendum question — with ppl looking to ask very detailed questions and expecting proper answers — which the Brexit one did not have. It had no scope for the bait-and-switch that was foisted on the Scottish people. If these answers are not satisfactory, if they are like Bojo, Farage, Gove or Trump populist responses, it won’t get through.

I also think it needs a bigger margin than Brexit in order to have any validity; 48/52 on an already low and skewed voter turnout doesn’t feel very representative. I know FPTP means winner takes all but it’s cleaved the country in two.
 
It’s interesting that the same rhetoric the hardline Scottish nationalists use (the thrill of freedom, the great unknown, we have no idea what happens when we leave, everything will be fine and so on) is derided if it’s used by anyone wanting independence from the EU. There are two-faces to the Scottish. Using it for Scottish independence is ok, but use it for a UK independence from the EU and the Scottish suddenly lose their shit.

Racist drivel reversed and we have more racist drivel.
 
2/3 In many ways Brexit has been a salutary lesson on how not to present and undertake a referendum... it’s had the effect of making other populists in the EU think very carefully about how to present such a topic. You look at how the pro Brexit ppl and those gammon English types are just ****ing manic about it, 3 PMs down and mass resignations, a huge churn rate for politicians and an MP brain drain, the best people for the job are no longer in positions, England have really middle and junior ppl elevated to positions of responsibility they cannot handle.
 
3/3 Oh and Scotland really needs to seek Independence if only to quarantine itself from an England that likes to regard Scotland as something of a trophy wife; there are Sociopathic Westminster politicians like IDS and Rees Mogg, then useful idiots like Bojo and Gove, plus the shadowy stuff, the kingmakers, the Cummingses and the blackshirts waiting in the wings like Farage and Widdecombe who want to be a bit rougher with Scotland’s independence following a hard Brexit — all represent a danger to Scotland.

Right-wing English politics has finally metastasised under austerity, it’s dragged the left to the center and the center to the right and those kinds of reps are not a great fit for England, let alone Scotland. Scottish Labour are just not credible as a party to vote for up here to expect any meaningful opposition to Tory fascism. SNP really is the only option in an English political vacuum that offers only promises no one really believe anyone can deliver.
 
Good Morning All,

In any discussion there are always going to be people with entrenched positions and no amount of 'rational' argument will sway them.

I voted for Brexit in 2016. I also voted against Scottish independence in 2014.

At the outset I live in Scotland (two properties) and have done so since 2000 and I've worked out of Aberdeen since December 1983 and both my sons were born here.

I see recent contributors have made points which need 'repeating' or 're-emphasising' at least.

Going back to last week's leaders debate I think both Corbyn and Sturgeon came across quite well. Yes I wasn't impressed with Corbyn declaring a neutral stance and I was disappointed that Sturgeon wasn't pushed more on the subject of how Scotland would fare if an independence vote was successful.

I agree that in the event Labour win the election or get the possibility of forming a minority government the SNP should put the independence issue 'on hold' for 5 years and work with Labour.

We have all lived through the collective failure of MP's to do what they said they would on Brexit (whether or not it is good or bad for the country), Scotland would face years of uncertainty if they gained independence negotiating with the EC for entry. Do the people of Scotland really want that?

When I look at how things in the country are overall and the massive amount of time that has been lost over the Brexit issue I am utterly frustrated with the whole system.

My 'sitting' MP, Colin Clark (Conservative - a 29% gain) only had a majority of 2,607 over Alex Salmond (SNP - an 11.8% loss) at the last election. Labour support went up and the LD vote dropped off a cliff.

In 2015, when Sir Malcolm Bruce (Lib Dem) stood down Alex Salmond beat the new LD candidate by 8,687.

I have stated elsewhere we need to focus less on Brexit and more on getting proportional representation established and vote for 20% of member's being re-elected each year to get some consistency and stability.........

I have only four candidates to choose from. I have already told Colin Clark he isn't getting my vote, I can't vote SNP whilst they maintain a hard line of independence so, judging by recent history a vote for either Labour or LD here in the Gordon constituency would amount, almost, to a 'wasted' vote.

Regards

Richard
 
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Scotland already faces years of uncertainty with a Westminster prime minister that nobody believes or trusts, running a Tory party that is simply pulling undeliverable promises out of the air. Brexit only offers uncertainty, be it via a deal or crashing out to WTO, it’s the same uncertainty — and it will take years for England to negotiate any deals, Article 50 and Brexit is just the beginning of the process.

I think we need to move beyond this idea of a wasted vote. I’m suspicious of tactical voting (good article here). Vote for what you believe in not for stopping what you don’t believe in. In local elections since 2000 I voted for green because at a local level I believe that is what is best for the region but it’s hopeless (and really the Greens are not nearly radical enough, but in the 2000s the SNP lacked the focus/coherence of Sturgeon and I really didn’t like Salmond doing that dodgy Aberdeen resort deal with Trump — even back then) but I don’t mind; it’s a quintessentially wasted vote but I still don’t feel like shit for voting for the nut job parties and the religious and those anti LGBTQ+ Christian morality parties that crept out of the woodwork and died off… eventually. Hopefully Tories in Scotland next. They’re already coughing up blood.
 
TheDecameron said:
Labour are never going to win a majority under Jeremy Corbyn- they’ll be lucky to achieve a minority govt with SNP cooperation, nor will they win back the dozens of seats they lost in Scotland to the SNP, not in my lifetime. No one up here trusts Corbyn on Brexit, he’s had more positions on it than the Kama Sutra. His government needs to halt Brexit and have a commission on it. Maybe consider a referendum in two years but not while the new government sorts out Britain’s dreadful social and economic problems. Sound familiar?
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Still not answering what I asked.

I’ll rephrase it and take a bit out.

Given what Sturgeon announced to the UK last Friday, why should Labour agree to a referendum in 2020 to gain SNP support against the tories?

claire.foxx said:
1/3 It’s interesting that the same rhetoric the hardline Brexit people use (the thrill of freedom, the great unknown, no longer under vassalage, we have no idea what happens when we leave, everything will be fine and so on) This same rhetoric is derided by the brexiters if it’s used by anyone wanting independence in Scotland. There are two-faces to the English. Using it for Brexit is ok, but use the same to justify Scottish independence and the Brexiters suddenly, completely lose their shit.
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The post from rich that follows yours has it nailed.

ff1d1l said:
Maybe, on the evidence of your track record, hold off voting again until you get a bit better at it?
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Says the Plaid voter.
 
ff1d1l said:
Maybe, on the evidence of your track record, hold off voting again until you get a bit better at it?
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I do hope that isn't your idea of an intelligent contribution - but may be it is?

I have voted LD in the past and would this time again BUT they are declaring to cancel Brexit unilaterally (as I understand it) and whilst I do have significant doubts about the outcome of my vote in 2016 undoing Chapter 50 has to be as democratic as enabling it in the first place. Thus I can't vote LD on that basis alone.

That leaves me with Labour - a party I have never voted for in my life but who, in my later years, I would have to admit may have some of the best ideas currently available.

As I keep stating politics is considerably less important than doing something about climate change.........

Regards

Richard
 
Richard Lines said:
As I keep stating politics is considerably less important than doing something about climate change...
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In which case why don’t you let the policies concerning tackling climate change dictate how are you vote in this election? If that is the overarching concern, keep focus with a single issue. It’s a vote That is going to happen anyway, get it out the way and then get to work on keeping the environmental pressure up on whoever gets elected?
 
I personally can't think of anyone from south of the border who votes for the snp. Neither can I think of anyone who comes from outwith the UK who voted for brexit. There are lots from both camps in scootland and to be sure, I know quite a few from both camps. A curious dichotomy that I have no doubt is of sufficient influence in certain constituencies to affect the vote one way or another.
 
HairyHaggis said:
I personally can't think of anyone from south of the border who votes for the snp. Neither can I think of anyone who comes from outwith the UK who voted for brexit. There are lots from both camps in scootland and to be sure, I know quite a few from both camps. A curious dichotomy that I have no doubt is of sufficient influence in certain constituencies to affect the vote one way or another.
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Lol...I'd love to see an SNP candidate canvassing in England. It would make great TV.
 
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