Arkless Electronics
Trade: Amp design and repairs.
Dyson? They suck.
Is Naim snake oil?
- Thread starter Furrowedbrow
- Start date
Furrowedbrow
pfm Member
I think all vacuum cleaners do, except my old bagged one, that had a wonderful warmth to it.
S-Man
StrivingON
Dyson...genius...sells you a product that solves a non-problem for twice as much money!
Get a Numatic and have done!
kendo
Prussian bot
Mullardman
Moderately extreme...
I just rolled with it and brushed it off.
Mullardman
Moderately extreme...
And replace them with your own?
Mullardman
Moderately extreme...
Well thank you Hook.
Re: the anecdote in question.. it wasn't entirely pointless when viewed in context, but then I'm very accustomed to people not only failing to read what I wrote, rather than what they thought I wrote,but also failing to grasp the thread context.
As it happens.. I remember the time I.. Nahh, you wouldn't understand..
Re: the anecdote in question.. it wasn't entirely pointless when viewed in context, but then I'm very accustomed to people not only failing to read what I wrote, rather than what they thought I wrote,but also failing to grasp the thread context.
As it happens.. I remember the time I.. Nahh, you wouldn't understand..
Jonboi
Because Music Matters
As someone who's owned Naim, I think this is quite fair and likely true for some people. At the time I bought my Naim kit, the main source of information about HiFi generally, and Naim in particular was magazines.
I sought it out, auditioned it, liked it, and whilst very expensive, thought it very good and ultimately worth the price of admission.
A decade and a bit later, when I moved into AV and with it some 9000ES series Sony kit, I was pretty shocked and dismayed to find that on blind, AB level matched (measured) comparisons, the sonic differences between the Sony and Naim amplification were very small indeed. I won't say they sounded exactly the same, but they were far more alike than dissimilar.
On very well known, favourite tracks one could perceive those small differences - a cymbal crash here, a snare drum strike there, the acoustic space on cathedral organ, the timbral colour of the instrument etc. But if playing less than familiar music, and again blind and level matched, it was much harder to pick differences - again, not exactly the same sonic 'signature' but more alike than dissimilar.
At the end of the day, the conclusion was that the Sony amp had noticeably higher resolution, and much better transient response/dynamics - or translated to Naimee terms, quicksilver v's plodding PRaT - and inevitably a much more insightful and musical listen than the Naim on most musical genres.
The shock and dismay came about due mainly the 'badge', reputation and of course the considerable difference in price.
In the ensuing years, I've done a lot of AB testing at home; amps, CD/DVD players, racks, cables etc, and where possible always measure as close as I can to get the same volume level, and do it blind where I can with the help of a friend.
I have little doubt that under blind ABX conditions, as the Richard Clark amplifier challenge proved, most people would struggle to pick meaningful differences between any competent amplifier, not driven into distortion and operating with a suitable load, let alone source components and cables, racks etc.
The power of expectation and confirmation bias is immense, and the psychology of marketing no doubt plays a part in this.
Our hearing is also not linear, but logarithmic, so even subtle differences in volume can result in perceived differences in sound attributed to an component being compared in a shop setting, when in reality all we are hearing is the difference in perceived loudness.
So there were some lessons learned, and whilst I enjoyed my time with Naim, it's idiosyncratic nature with all the warming up rituals etc counted against it, and ultimately it was sold off as it did not match the musical results of the Sony and was stereo only, whereas I had moved into a M/C AV system.
Was the Naim sonically worth what I paid for it? Yes, I think it was - at least at first, and given the resources and knowledge I had at the time, and there was no doubt it was a very enjoyable and satisfying listen on the whole.
But technology and with it the performance envelope moves on, - the Sony was and is effectively a Tact Millennium in design and modus operandi, - which made Naims products look quite dated in circuit design terms, and ones knowledge about HiFi and proper controlled testing methodologies grows with experience.
As such, another decade and a bit on when I found myself in the same position again, seeking a new complete system, I found what I wanted in a fully active (at last!) M/C AV setup from B&O, which thus far has proved to be the best performing and most satisfying HiFi system to live with that I've had the pleasure of owning.
Cheers
Maxbertola
pfm Member
I suggest that you post the very same question on the naim forum: http://forums.naimaudio.com.
You'll be surprised at the amount of serious replies you'll have among the usual ton of bulls*it (as happens here too, for that) and you'll be informed by someone from the staff himself perhaps, instead of asking on a forum populated mainly by people who has left Naim or hates the brand in principle.
Try it, it's free.
Best
Massimo
You'll be surprised at the amount of serious replies you'll have among the usual ton of bulls*it (as happens here too, for that) and you'll be informed by someone from the staff himself perhaps, instead of asking on a forum populated mainly by people who has left Naim or hates the brand in principle.
Try it, it's free.
Best
Massimo
berty bass
pfm Member
Sure people move between brands for whatever reason - often for no better reason than simply wanting to try something new - but show me ONE comment from this entire thread that supports the second half of your statement.
Maxbertola
pfm Member
Why the requested comment must come from this thread? I have been a member of PFM for years and I have read tons of those comments. If you want, put 'Naim' in the search function and spend a rainy day with the results. Meanwhile, why don't you show me ONE thread structured like the OP's starting post about any other audio brand?
berty bass
pfm Member
Why should I? I've neither defended or attacked Naim - along with many other contributors on this thread - merely 'riffed' on their approach to developing, marketing and encouraging a long term investment in their products on behalf of their purchasers.
whatsnext
Naimless
Thanks for the link Max
http://forums.naimaudio.com/topic/naim-bashing-
http://forums.naimaudio.com/topic/obnoxious-naim-bashing
Result of a search for bashing. Seems very much a Naim concept just like yer PRaT. I haven’t read all the search results, though I may return one day.
Don’t bash the product of which I am very proud. Pride and Naim
http://forums.naimaudio.com/topic/naim-bashing-
http://forums.naimaudio.com/topic/obnoxious-naim-bashing
Result of a search for bashing. Seems very much a Naim concept just like yer PRaT. I haven’t read all the search results, though I may return one day.
Don’t bash the product of which I am very proud. Pride and Naim
Serious or die hard wool sheep ?
They are all represented
Offcourse there are serious posters everywhere but the green forum has become quite a terrible place in recent years imo, mainly gossip and box preaching equal to what posters own at the moment, if you go against the hiearchy with a different opinion hell is loose. Someone is constantly referring to other peoples opinion and so on..
Not that I miss the old " buy more Mana " days but the amount of streaming issues and self promoting threads has over-shadowed the few interesting threads.
Too high moderation is another issue, is it allowed to mention Teddy Pardo, EWA cables, Avondale ? Naah I don't think so
As for this thread, well someone allways willing to support full blind Naim bashing, not sure if the OP is seriously about this or by coincidence openend the pandora box rolling
Maxbertola
pfm Member
Hi Per,
the last thing I wanted was re-opening the same Pandora's box for the 1000th time. And I am fed up to my hairs with discussions on this or that forum. We are grownups, for god's sake, and should have a life for other than this...
Anyway: I follow the Naim forum regularly, Teddy Pardo is mentioned without being moderated (at least in the System Pics thread), I posted a pic of my system with two Pardo PSUs and it raised no interest or gossip or moderation at all; EWE cables are the sons of TelluriumQs and the letter have been discussed there to death; As for Avondale, anyone here should know that it was Les W who warned Naim that he didn't want to be mentioned in any form on the Naim forum, lest penal consequences. Not the contrary. That said, I have also taken a look at other audio forums, but nowhere Naim seems to be put in discussion so frequently and so critically as here. I don't sincerely give a s*it about this, but evidence is evidence.
I agree with you, anyway, that the forum has become a very boring place: but Naim products, targets and users have changed and old die hards have not much to say anymore.
I myself, to begin with.
Ciao
Max
the last thing I wanted was re-opening the same Pandora's box for the 1000th time. And I am fed up to my hairs with discussions on this or that forum. We are grownups, for god's sake, and should have a life for other than this...
Anyway: I follow the Naim forum regularly, Teddy Pardo is mentioned without being moderated (at least in the System Pics thread), I posted a pic of my system with two Pardo PSUs and it raised no interest or gossip or moderation at all; EWE cables are the sons of TelluriumQs and the letter have been discussed there to death; As for Avondale, anyone here should know that it was Les W who warned Naim that he didn't want to be mentioned in any form on the Naim forum, lest penal consequences. Not the contrary. That said, I have also taken a look at other audio forums, but nowhere Naim seems to be put in discussion so frequently and so critically as here. I don't sincerely give a s*it about this, but evidence is evidence.
I agree with you, anyway, that the forum has become a very boring place: but Naim products, targets and users have changed and old die hards have not much to say anymore.
I myself, to begin with.
Ciao
Max