david ellwood
Kirabosi Kognoscente
Please God, is it time to mention Hitler?
Is Naim snake oil?
- Thread starter Furrowedbrow
- Start date
berty bass
pfm Member
It seems to me - as a non-Naim owner and having no agenda with regard to the sound of their kit (aside from simply preferring my Rega Elicit-R when I A/B'ed it against a Nait 5Si recently) - that the 'issue' with Naim is the price of their kit versus the perceived superiority of it in terms of its performance when it is very much marketed on the basis of its superiority (as is most other Hi-Fi kit). Many do not find it so and feel that marketing is cleverly used to support the inflated price of equipment that - to some - is not 'worth it' on the basis of the electronics involved and sound created. When you add in what seems to be the almost never ending 'upgrade' (I use the term loosely) path Naim encourages by extolling the 'virtues' (again, I use the term loosely) of add-on's such as expensive PSU's it really is little wonder that those who've sunk substantial amounts of money into their kit only to have ended up perhaps years later suspecting they had a wardrobe full of the Emperor's new clothes should feel slightly irked. Especially when they discover equipment they are equally or more happy with for less money. Now, whether they should be irked with themselves or Naim is the issue it seems to me; Naim's marketing is simply doing its job. I suspect that there's very little in life many of us buy on the basis of a totally subjective and well informed assessment of its merits in comparison to peer group products - whether it's washing powder, lawn mowers, cars or Hi-Fi equipment. Emotion is a fundamental part of the decision to buy and it is emotion - as well as intellect - that clever marketing taps into. Moreover, many of us are reassured that buying a more expensive product is the correct decision because 'we get what we pay for'. That some of us don't - or come to feel we don't - is the crux of the issue.
lencotweaker
Mostly dreaming of record players
Don’t assume Naim demo’s are the same as 25 years ago either.
I had a dem of the Uniti Nova at Acoustica in Chester a few weeks ago. The system was set up for me when I arrived and Andy made me a coffee and showed me how to use it. Then left me alone to listen to music for almost 2 hours. Then we had a chat about what I liked about it and what I didn’t. Then he showed me some alternative brand Roon endpoints that might work for me for much less money. I’m thinking of getting the Nova on home dem at some point.
No sales pressure, no comments on my music, no mention of PRAT and a thoroughly enjoyable morning out.
Most of you are living in the past. You really are.
I had a dem of the Uniti Nova at Acoustica in Chester a few weeks ago. The system was set up for me when I arrived and Andy made me a coffee and showed me how to use it. Then left me alone to listen to music for almost 2 hours. Then we had a chat about what I liked about it and what I didn’t. Then he showed me some alternative brand Roon endpoints that might work for me for much less money. I’m thinking of getting the Nova on home dem at some point.
No sales pressure, no comments on my music, no mention of PRAT and a thoroughly enjoyable morning out.
Most of you are living in the past. You really are.
Tony L
Administrator
I won’t make any comment on the current Focal group pricing, but I’ll argue all day the Verker-era stuff (the only Naim that holds any interest for me) was fairly priced for the build quality and performance on offer. I’ve said it several times on this thread, but the difference in build quality between Naim and much of their (especially cottage industry) competition really was night and day which is one reason why so much chrome bumper era Naim still looks great and is fully serviceable whereas so much kit from the same time frame looks like crap or is long gone as it is just no longer viable or valuable enough to even bother working on. Folk can make any decision they like on the sound from a subjective perspective, but the build, reliability and serviceability is as good as it gets.
Fatmarley
"It appears my intelligence circuits have melted"
There was also one about drill bits but I found It a bit boring.
berty bass
pfm Member
Ah, but it was Acoustica who also encouraged me towards the Nait 5Si. Neither the Rega Elex-R or Elicit-R were mentioned at the time. Mind you, it was towards the end of a very relaxed, 2 hour session demo-ing speakers and towards closing time.
Martyn Miles
pfm Member
Naim Believers, eh ?
No doubt if they had their own church it use Naim amps. on
the PA system.
Now there’s a thought...
I was only joshing so no worries... I need to find a way to put a jokingly sarcastic inflection into my writing .... but then I guess I'd be a writer
djftw
Heterodox Member
Not too interested in getting drawn into the silly bickering, but as someone who prefers later black box Naim i.e. the stuff that actually measures well/relatively conventionally and was drawn to it because of what I assumed at the time to be this PRaT everyone was going on about. I would note that whilst calling it PRaT is definitely marketing guff, I think it relates to a real and measurable aspect of performance, namely square-wave rise time. I find other competent amplifiers that measure well in this respect are also possesed of PRaT, it is a great shame manufacturers do not typically publish this measurement as many did in the 70s. Lacking technical measurements however I find Slayer's Raining Blood works well, as if the system performs poorly it will sound like the noise old farts say it is as everything runs together as the system can't keep up. If the system performs well you can follow the instruments easily and even if it is not your cup of tea marvel at the complexity and the speed and precision of the musicians playing it!
As a former member of BICSc with over a decade of experience I can confirm this is correct, I can't believe it is even contentious! I once demonstrated to a client who already had a Dyson on site why my staff would not be using it by vacuuming a circa 20m^2 area with it, and then with a Sebo X4 with a new bag. It was completely unequivocal. A plastics factory that used to make parts for them before they offshored to China is near here, a few people who used to work there have said the designs were brilliant, but Dyson speced shit materials and insisted they did not use better ones which they offered for the same cost. (Hi-Fi related fun fact, they also used to make parts for Arcam who gave the factory workers a very decent discount so you see a lot of plastic facia era Arcam round here, even (judging by how it is set up) in the homes of decidedly non-hi-fi people!)
Whaleblue
Southbound
Hmm, it was like watching, umm, something not very interesting.
djftw
Heterodox Member
Nah bro, the story was that what Dyson speced needed to be imported especially from China just for Dyson, where they already sourced very large quantities of what was presumably a higher PP blend. Ergo could offer it at the same price which makes perfect sense to me, though of course it is hearsay! Not that it especially matters, even my mother could tell you Dysons are not well made based on the number of times her last one was repaired under warranty.
Rockmeister
pfm Member
Hm.
To keep this short, the expression 'friends and enemies' is well know. Are you really going to pick out one word from that phrase and suggest it implies mental illness? Surely you are educated enough to understand it's meaning in this context? And can't you see why the nature of your reply only underlines the size of chip you are carrying?
Neither of us know the motives of the OP. You want to read something in to suit your paranoia, fair do's. I thought he was asking, would naim be a good quad replacement/improvement or, are the rumours about expensive tweaks and upgrades true?
He has posted quite a lot since about NOT wanting to appear trollish or bashing hasn't he?
And I, who was trying to remain moderate despite strong views on the subject am no longer interested in any reasoned contribution to this thread. You see, simple debate is not only curtailed by 'haters' but also by the over-reaction of the supporting side. I'm out
(not a drama btw, just, busy with other stuff).
You see, saying Naim is the Emperor's new clothes is effectively saying that anyone having bought Naim has been conned, had the wool pulled over their eyes, has been duped into believing that the godawful racket leaking out of the pretty black boxes is in fact sonic nirvana.....and that's just not true is it, but it is very insulting so why go there?
Naim make products that are a quality product, whether you personally like the sound is a matter of taste, but it seems a lot of Naim detractors here have been owners in the past so presumably they found the product sonically acceptable at that point. So really you're not questioning if the emperor is wearing clothes, just the cost of them, which is probably a different fairytale altogether.
With regards to the cost, they are very expensive, but here's the thing, I have had over the years kit from Denon [landfill], Micromega [landfill], Pink Triangle [landfill], Linn [still going but no longer supported], whereas all the Naim of the same vintage I've had over the years is all still perfectly serviceable and as a result mostly as valuable as the price I paid for it however long ago. Compare say the £600 I paid for the Micromega Stage CD player, it was touted at the time as great value for money, but their business model was flawed and they went bust, as did the CD player. I replaced it with a CDX, guess what, it's still playing perfectly almost 20 years later, and I think still supported by Naim and therefore I might still be able to recover a chunk of change if I decided to sell, although CD players are not as sought after now so maybe not the same percentage as I did with my past sales of 72,82,and 140, all of which I sold for around what I'd paid ten or so years earlier. Is that likely with your Rega? I hope it is it's a good model for a consumer, but be it clever marketing or good business practice, there is an underlying confidence in Naim and it's stability, which in turn allows a healthy secondhand market.
Martyn Miles
pfm Member
Re. plastic and Dyson, the quality of the clip-on tools with my British built DC1 was much better than on Malaysian built cleaners.
It has improved on my latest Dyson, but I don't know where they're built.
berty bass
pfm Member
Don't disagree with much of what you say at all but my point really is that we're talking about perception, not empirical truth - specifically the perceived sonic value of a piece of kit against the fiscal outlay. In your example you could easily substitute Micromega for Naim and the point would be the same. You've bought items you now describe as landfill. Why? It's worth what you're willing to pay for it - or were willing to pay for it at the time - and what you're willing to pay for it depends on its performance and the value you attach to that performance. Some have ultimately found Naim kit not to be 'worth it' and may have come to feel their purchase was influenced unduly in some way. They may describe that experience as 'snake oil'. Not me, I don't own any Naim kit, but I think this is a reasonable summation of the discussion so far.
No not really, you see the Micromega parts were no longer available [same for the Pink Triangle Dac], and even if they had been, would the resale value of the Micromega justified the repair cost had the parts been available? Especially as by then they had a reputation for being unreliable. Not so the Naim.
