G
Is Naim snake oil?
- Thread starter Furrowedbrow
- Start date
djftw
Heterodox Member
That would tend to make me a bit cynical about J.D. Power's sampling methodology as Audi and Skoda are not just stablemates, they are practically the same cars in most every respect that would effect reliability!
djftw
Heterodox Member
York Audi were not very helpful initially on that occasion, though to be fair the car was as I said, well out of warrenty. I contacted Audi UK over social media who were very helpful. More generally I have never dealt with an Audi dealership, (or indeed ever bought a car from a dealership) so not too clued up on that one. The SÖ, however, I wont hear a word against, they have been putting up with me being a pest since I was 14 or so!
kimbleman
pfm Member
Now.....is there any thread on here where we can talk about May's re-shuffle......or lack of it (with the Bastard Hammond still at number 11)????
At least Grayling hasn't been given something else to f***-up (still trying hard to break his train set).
At least Grayling hasn't been given something else to f***-up (still trying hard to break his train set).
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Mike Reed
pfm Member
Not according to a motoring article reflecting on the latest J.D. Power survey. It pointed out that though many underpinnings and parts are shared (with Seat as well), there are differences in electronic sophistication and connectivity, with Audi ahead on add-ons of Skoda, e.g. Of course, the more electronic gizmos, the greater chance of failure. Some models (the new Skoda Kodiak (?), e.g. are designed entirely by the relevant company and only use generic VW parts. Regardless of parts reliability, the build and quality control systems may differ.
I do agree, however, that the whole system of deriving an accurate window of automobile reliability from surveys is a wee bit suspect.
Mike Reed
pfm Member
Jonboi
Because Music Matters
Reading through the latest posts has prompted some fresh thoughts.
If I were in the UK, could afford Naims pricing, and was in the market for a passive separates system, then why not?
It's very well made and finished, looks great, and has great service and resale value.
However, locally I would not purchase it again because Ex UK factory with shipping, import duties, sales tax, GST, wholesaler and retailer markups all added on, they're a very expensive proposition new, and for resale the price drops very disproportionately to that which can be bought of eBay second hand from the UK.
Certainly when I sold my in as new condition naim electronics, I got a pittance for them relative to the new price I paid locally, which from all accounts is a very different experience to the UK owner/home market.
Which is a value for money proposition - as you can get a slightly different sonic signature, but with equally as enjoyable results musically, elsewhere, and for less money on the local HiFi market.
It's a great pity that fully active operation, which in Naim's heyday sat at the top of the performance tree, now seems to be taking a back seat - largely perhaps because Naim's parent company Focal, don't supply speakers designed for conversion to fully active operation as did Naims own, and neither do the usual suspects such as B&W etc.
Personally, this is a great loss, as apart from the large amount of boxes and racks required to do fully active operation Naim style, the sonic results going from passive to active are such that I could never go back.
Indeed, to my ears, the only passive separates systems speakers I've heard that can better the likes of active speaker systems for dynamics, resolution and the sense of scale of a live performance, would be the large horn loaded speakers such as the Klipsch Heresy's and La-Scalas, or the big JBL's of which my favourite would be the Everest.
The lack of fully in house AV capability is another loss IMV, as many audio enthusiasts enjoy music and movies and don't have the space for separate systems.
Indeed my requirements for an very high performance, integrated, fully active system (including the centre channel) that could give total satisfaction for critical music listening and also approach the best movie systems such as those made by Miller & Kriesal, had to be found elsewhere, as Naim unfortunately does not offer such systems.
And lastly, and purely a personal thing, having done it, I can no longer live with a lounge room full of multiple racks of HiFi kit on aesthetic grounds, dominating a room.
So those are my reasons why, having owned and loved Naim for it's sonic enjoyment, I would not go back to it having moved on.
Does that mean it's 'bad'? No.
Does that mean it's 'snake oil'? Not really - certainly no more than any other 'specialist' Audiophile kit competing in the market place for sales, often on the back of dubious pseudo scientific marketing claims, especially as regards cables and other audio foo.
Does that mean I hate it and want to bash it? No.
However, the one thing that did irk at the time I started to move/expand away from Naim into M/C AV, and what prompted this little summary post from me re the latest thread comments, was the experience socially at the hands of some of the Naim fanboys and dealers I came across during that time.
Having a Naim dealer laugh in my face when I told him I thought my ES9000 Series Sony amp bested my Naim kit.
Being told by a Naim fanboy, that my qualifications and training as a classical musician meant nothing, and that I needed to be taught how to listen to a HiFi.
The condescending and patronising attitude of many Naim dealers and some owners I've come across where somehow or other, Naim is the finest you can buy, and if you don't recognise that, you're an idiot, fool, blind, whatever other insult you'd like to mention.
This has absolutely nothing to do with Naim the company, who make very fine products.
But it must be said that in it's heyday, there was a certain 'attitude' amongst dealers and some owners, that was very off putting to say the least to those who were outside the Naim 'faithful' circle.
Certainly I do think, this dealer and occasional fanboy snobbery about the brand, has been the touch point for some of the perceived back lash and anti Naim 'bashing' that occurs from time to time.
However, time has moved on, and naim is not the company it was under JV, so I have no idea whether that dealer/ fanboy attitude exists or not today, as apart from hearing the latest Naim kit at International HiFi shows, I don't frequent Naim dealerships.
Certainly I have not noticed any Naim 'bashing' in this thread, nor has it been my intent by either design or accident, and agree with Mullardman that it has been a largely respectful and thoughtful discussion of the ethos, engineering and marketing of Naim.
Cheers
If I were in the UK, could afford Naims pricing, and was in the market for a passive separates system, then why not?
It's very well made and finished, looks great, and has great service and resale value.
However, locally I would not purchase it again because Ex UK factory with shipping, import duties, sales tax, GST, wholesaler and retailer markups all added on, they're a very expensive proposition new, and for resale the price drops very disproportionately to that which can be bought of eBay second hand from the UK.
Certainly when I sold my in as new condition naim electronics, I got a pittance for them relative to the new price I paid locally, which from all accounts is a very different experience to the UK owner/home market.
Which is a value for money proposition - as you can get a slightly different sonic signature, but with equally as enjoyable results musically, elsewhere, and for less money on the local HiFi market.
It's a great pity that fully active operation, which in Naim's heyday sat at the top of the performance tree, now seems to be taking a back seat - largely perhaps because Naim's parent company Focal, don't supply speakers designed for conversion to fully active operation as did Naims own, and neither do the usual suspects such as B&W etc.
Personally, this is a great loss, as apart from the large amount of boxes and racks required to do fully active operation Naim style, the sonic results going from passive to active are such that I could never go back.
Indeed, to my ears, the only passive separates systems speakers I've heard that can better the likes of active speaker systems for dynamics, resolution and the sense of scale of a live performance, would be the large horn loaded speakers such as the Klipsch Heresy's and La-Scalas, or the big JBL's of which my favourite would be the Everest.
The lack of fully in house AV capability is another loss IMV, as many audio enthusiasts enjoy music and movies and don't have the space for separate systems.
Indeed my requirements for an very high performance, integrated, fully active system (including the centre channel) that could give total satisfaction for critical music listening and also approach the best movie systems such as those made by Miller & Kriesal, had to be found elsewhere, as Naim unfortunately does not offer such systems.
And lastly, and purely a personal thing, having done it, I can no longer live with a lounge room full of multiple racks of HiFi kit on aesthetic grounds, dominating a room.
So those are my reasons why, having owned and loved Naim for it's sonic enjoyment, I would not go back to it having moved on.
Does that mean it's 'bad'? No.
Does that mean it's 'snake oil'? Not really - certainly no more than any other 'specialist' Audiophile kit competing in the market place for sales, often on the back of dubious pseudo scientific marketing claims, especially as regards cables and other audio foo.
Does that mean I hate it and want to bash it? No.
However, the one thing that did irk at the time I started to move/expand away from Naim into M/C AV, and what prompted this little summary post from me re the latest thread comments, was the experience socially at the hands of some of the Naim fanboys and dealers I came across during that time.
Having a Naim dealer laugh in my face when I told him I thought my ES9000 Series Sony amp bested my Naim kit.
Being told by a Naim fanboy, that my qualifications and training as a classical musician meant nothing, and that I needed to be taught how to listen to a HiFi.
The condescending and patronising attitude of many Naim dealers and some owners I've come across where somehow or other, Naim is the finest you can buy, and if you don't recognise that, you're an idiot, fool, blind, whatever other insult you'd like to mention.
This has absolutely nothing to do with Naim the company, who make very fine products.
But it must be said that in it's heyday, there was a certain 'attitude' amongst dealers and some owners, that was very off putting to say the least to those who were outside the Naim 'faithful' circle.
Certainly I do think, this dealer and occasional fanboy snobbery about the brand, has been the touch point for some of the perceived back lash and anti Naim 'bashing' that occurs from time to time.
However, time has moved on, and naim is not the company it was under JV, so I have no idea whether that dealer/ fanboy attitude exists or not today, as apart from hearing the latest Naim kit at International HiFi shows, I don't frequent Naim dealerships.
Certainly I have not noticed any Naim 'bashing' in this thread, nor has it been my intent by either design or accident, and agree with Mullardman that it has been a largely respectful and thoughtful discussion of the ethos, engineering and marketing of Naim.
Cheers
pjdowns
Living the Hifi dream
A lot of it comes down to the dealerships of any products, I have had bad experiences in Audi dealers, and then again very good experiences in other Audi dealers when I was purchasing my car.
The same could be said about Hifi dealers. I had the unfortunate experience at a local Audio T a couple of years ago, which would prevent me from ever returning or purchasing anything from them again.
Most consumables in life are a choice thing. I don't particularly like Naim anymore, but that doesn't mean I would crisis other fans (other than maybe some of the true Naimiess from the their forum who are clearly nut cases), I would just emphasis my experiences and point out what I have found along my hifi journey.
The same could be said about Hifi dealers. I had the unfortunate experience at a local Audio T a couple of years ago, which would prevent me from ever returning or purchasing anything from them again.
Most consumables in life are a choice thing. I don't particularly like Naim anymore, but that doesn't mean I would crisis other fans (other than maybe some of the true Naimiess from the their forum who are clearly nut cases), I would just emphasis my experiences and point out what I have found along my hifi journey.