Power Cables. Are they overhyped? Part II: Electric Boogaloo

[Jim Audiomisc]

I would imagine Simon will be discussing this issue at the source, he will not be responding to your views just giving information regarding the test, maybe lay a few myths that often circulate on forums, everyone is susceptible, even the most intelligent amongst us.


I have had the pleasure of dealing with this company on numerous occasions, they will answer honestly & accurately to my request as do any company I have dealt with over the years.
Just for clarity, I would imagine I was one of the first to lay a complaint at The Russ Andrews front door many years ago, I too was an absolute sceptic as I am with most things in life, i decided to try it out instead, it's much more fun.

OK. It will certainly be useful if he can arrange to let people now have access again to the documents I originally referenced and gave URLs for. Plus it would be welcome to have more info on the tests run at the time.

But my key points remain:

1) That the results presented to us/me at the time are consistent with the standard model of a mismatched line. i.e. nothing particularly surprising, or really needing any new 'effects'. beyond that.

2) That the measurements were done on a bench setup without much evidence wrt how likely that would be to represent a typical home setup in use. Particularly given the variability factors I've mentioned.

And to repeat something I've said before for the sake of clarity: I'm not doubting or questioning the honesty or intent of those involved. I'm interesting in the science and engineering and allowing people to judge that as a possible basis for making their own informed choices.

 

[rn82497]

So in other words no basis whatsoever.

So its,

lets see how about a silver plated double socket feeding a mains block made out of special RF expelling plastic plugged into a mains cable thick as your arm made out of double helix unobtanium plated gold conductors rolled between the thighs of blond virgins wrapped in the obligatory plastic braid and heatshrinked ends (that stops the electromagnetic fairies getting into the plug) all dipped in a cryogenic bath to align the grain structure.

All leading to blacker blacks, increased microdynamics, reduced background noise and of course not forgetting the soundstage now expands 20 feet beyond the speakers (which of course disappear)

Perhaps I need to use a bigger coloured font and simpler words :-/

 

[Errol]

I'd suggest these.

Mains cable do SFA at audio frequencies.
Some people are deaf some are fantasists
Get a mains regenerated if you have bad mains.
Buy more competently designed kit if your gear has poor psrr.

Oh dear

 

[Errol]

.

1. Yes subjective skills vary substantially, but whats the point?

Surely you must have got the point by now?

 

[BE718]

Perhaps I need to use a bigger coloured font and simpler words :-/

No, just a more credible explanation than " my dealers subjective opinion"

So go on, I was being facetious above, but tell us what mains cables and blocks he has used to tune his system?

You might of course then ask him why he never stopped to consider why his kit is so sensitive to mains variations?

 

[BE718]

Surely you must have got the point by now?

Erm...yes. Some people are highly susceptible to marketing technobollocks and expectation bias.

And/or have poorly designed equipment whose performance is degraded by *normal* variations in mains conditions.

 

[Lee T]

OK. It will certainly be useful if he can arrange to let people now have access again to the documents I originally referenced and gave URLs for. Plus it would be welcome to have more info on the tests run at the time.

But my key points remain:

1) That the results presented to us/me at the time are consistent with the standard model of a mismatched line. i.e. nothing particularly surprising, or really needing any new 'effects'. beyond that.

2) That the measurements were done on a bench setup without much evidence wrt how likely that would be to represent a typical home setup in use. Particularly given the variability factors I've mentioned.

And to repeat something I've said before for the sake of clarity: I'm not doubting or questioning the honesty or intent of those involved. I'm interesting in the science and engineering and allowing people to judge that as a possible basis for making their own informed choices.

Why were the results presented to you Jim for the Russ Andrews test, I must have missed something somewhere here, save me going back over this. Who sent them to you.
I had them here at one point, most of your points were not in the version available online to anyone, that's for sure, hence my reason for some clarification with the company, the points regarding how the result may not be presentable in a home environment are the only part I remember, I cannot remember the amount of detail you have presented.

 

[Lee T]

Eh?

The thread is about "Power Cables. Are they overhyped?"

Sorry, was yours a subjective interpretation of the thread topic?

Start from the left & move right along the sentence, this may help you to understand the post more clearly.

There really is no need to get so stressed, it's only a cable thread, it's just a bit of fun to read while enjoying music, shake it out & relax, deep breaths, in.........& out, remember to say the words re on inhale, then lax on exhaling.

Did I miss the test result or can you point me to a post.

 

[Lee T]

Shall we have a poll?

Mains cables make a difference to my music system : Y/N/Not sure/I do like talking about it.

Trouble is all the folks who don't hear a difference and think it a joke will not bother.

Ha, ha

Do you own a regenerator

 

[adamdea]

I'd suggest conclusions so far ...

1. Subjective listening skills of people vary substantially ... Others don't like to admit this.

2. ABX / Double blind testing procedure needs to be re-assesed w.r.t. the cognitive effective on the participants in such situations.

3. Power Cables / Blocks via the impedance mismatch at boundaries act to reject RFI. (Love the Fabry-Perot analogy!).

4. However the effect is heavily environmental dependent.

5. Amplifier designs may be more or less susceptible to mains born noise. BUT a good amplifier in this respect may be VERY poor in other respects.

6. A Mains conditioner is probably a more reliable way to deal with these environmental issues. But these approach introduces it own issues. A poor conditioner can impact performance. Those that don't are expensive.

To conclude: the subject is complex; cables can make a difference; find a good dealer and trust your ears; Try the solution out in your home environment as results will vary! Something some of us said about 80 pages ago.

That is a very good summary of what would have to be the case to justify your views and can easily be achieved by misunderstanding every point but finding something to say that sounds a bit like an accurate analysis. You must have a PhD by correspondence from the SPT university.
Btw i particularly like the one about thinking an RF filter is a mains conditioner.

 

[AndyU]

Start from the left & move right along the sentence, this may help you to understand the post more clearly.

There really is no need to get so stressed, it's only a cable thread, it's just a bit of fun to read while enjoying music, shake it out & relax, deep breaths, in.........& out, remember to say the words re on inhale, then lax on exhaling.

Did I miss the test result or can you point me to a post.

You would have to be seriously diseased to read this thread while enjoying music. imo of course.

 

[busb]

Lions 11 christians 0

 

[adamk]

And/or have poorly designed equipment whose performance is degraded by *normal* variations in mains conditions.

This one is a regular in these mains cable threads- can anyone actually name and shame these poorly designed products ?

 

[adamdea]

This one is a regular in these mains cable threads- can anyone actually name and shame these poorly designed products ?

It's tricky because the rf thing is just a conjecture. It's only there to provide a conceivable physical explanation for the perceived differences. I wouldn't take it too literally. Otherwise one just goes down the "jitter" road.

 

[Lee T]

You would have to be seriously diseased to read this thread while enjoying music. imo of course.

Depends on the music

 

[Lee T]

This one is a regular in these mains cable threads- can anyone actually name and shame these poorly designed products ?

Every piece of equipment is flawed to some degree, there is no such thing as the perfect amp or speaker or .....they will all dilute the sound to some degree from the original recording & performance. The good one's allow through the original intent of the musician, this is the where the great designers differ from the average.

 

[misterdog]

Every piece of equipment is flawed to some degree, there is no such thing as the perfect amp or speaker or .....they will all dilute the sound to some degree from the original recording & performance. The good one's allow through the original intent of the musician, this is the where the great designers differ from the average.

Many manufacturers have a series of amps at different price points, obviously the more you spend the more effort goes into design and component quality.

 

[mattgbell]

Every piece of equipment is flawed to some degree, there is no such thing as the perfect amp or speaker or .....they will all dilute the sound to some degree from the original recording & performance. The good one's allow through the original intent of the musician, this is the where the great designers differ from the average.

As you would know if you bothered to think before posting, that is complete nonsense. All an amplifier can do is amplify the signal presented to it. It cannot retrieve something from the mind of the musician.

 

[rn82497]

Lets reverse the question?

1. Recommend a high quality amplifier.

2. That you consider to be completely immune to the quality of the mains power supply.

3. That is typically stocked by Hi Fi Dealers that have decent demonstration facilities.

Given this information other PFM members can assess your recommendation / judgment.

 

[Lee T]

As you would know if you bothered to think before posting, that is complete nonsense. All an amplifier can do is amplify the signal presented to it. It cannot retrieve something from the mind of the musician.

Maybe you should follow your own advice & read the post, then your response before hitting the ego button, have you seen the flaw yet.

The mind of the musician, the feeling he portrayed while playing or singing on the track or piece will be on the recording if recorded well, it is then up to the engineer to attempt to design equipment to be able to allow this through unhindered to the best of their ability.

Got it yet, or do you need me to explain further.