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Winter election III

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eternumviti said:
my reasons for wanting to leave [the EU] are overwhelmingly moral and philosophical, and revolve around the deceit and grandiosity that constitutes the neoliberal EU project, and the right to vote for and to sanction the people who make our laws and spend our taxes. We're not going to meet on that one either, I suspect.
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We probably won’t meet on your last point, as long as the UK system continues to offer power to the likes of Johnson, Raab, et al. It’ll probably take 5 years to get a chance to sanction the harm that I fear will be unleashed on Friday, by which time lasting damage will have been done. In many cases, the damage will be irreparable (premature death being tricky to fix). I’d rather stay in a flawed EU that prevents the worst excesses I fear we’ll soon see, than leave and ‘win back’ the right to give the culprits a bit of a ticking off, after the event, via the ballot box. But that’s just me.
 
eternumviti said:
I don't question the democratic credibility of the court decision, but I do question the impartiality of the judges, and the departure of the judiciary into the political arena, both of which raise a number of perfectly legitimate questions. As regards the 2% decision, I hold that the lies and deceit were no worse from the leave side than they were from remain, and were quite possibly less influential in the result. I'm sure you disagree with me, and it is your right to do so, but I'm not going to come round to your side on that one.
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This is just 'ends justify means' claptrap. You question the impartiality of judges, even though it was a pretty straightforward abuse of Johnson's position for no better reason than to help him personally in political terms. There was no higher minded excuse. You sound like someone at a football match who thinks the referee is biased because your team concedes a penalty. So judges are only impartial if they do as the Executive requires? Very 30s Germany.

"The lies and deceit were equal" - complete tosh that doesn't stand up to even mild scrutiny. The Leave campaign have lied and misrepresented the UK's relationship with the EU on an industrial scale. The billionaire backers, through their media organisations have for much longer. The truth of a situation doesn't matter to you or your fellow Brexiteers. Never has.

FFS the lies continue. "Get Brexit done" - not even close. "They said I wouldn't be able to re-open the WA" - nobody imagined that making it worse would even be on the table, never mind qualify as a success. Now it's an achievement? "Another victory like that and we are lost" comes to mind. Johnson's turd of a deal will be a Pyrrhic victory to end all of them for those who think this man is their champion. No concern of yours, obvs.

"No additional paperwork for trade between NI and the rest of the UK" - not even remotely true, confirmed by the government's own reports.

It just goes on.
 
doctorf said:
Ashworth has made a real dick of himself today.
https://www.bbc.com/news/election-2019-50726592
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Has he though? Having a 'friend' who was prepared to (selectively or otherwise) do that to him certainly was bad judgement. But then what do you expect of a Tory?

Frank views complaining about their own party are commonly had between people of all parties. It takes a particularly unpleasant piece of shit to do that......but par for the current crop it seems.
 
SteveS1 said:
This is just 'ends justify means' claptrap. You question the impartiality of judges, even though it was a pretty straightforward abuse of Johnson's position for no better reason than to help him personally in political terms. There was no higher minded excuse. You sound like someone at a football match who thinks the referee is biased because your team concedes a penalty. So judges are only impartial if they do as the Executive requires? Very 30's Germany.

"The lies and deceit were equal" - complete tosh that doesn't stand up to even mild scrutiny. The Leave campaign have lied and misrepresented the UK's relationship with the EU on an industrial scale. The billionaire backers, through their media organisations have for much longer. The truth of a situation doesn't matter to you or your fellow Brexiteers. Never has.

FFS the lies continue. "Get Brexit done" - not even close. "They said I wouldn't be able to re-open the WA" - nobody imagined that making it worse would even be on the table, never mind qualify as a success. Now it's an achievement? "Another victory like that and we are lost" - Johnson's turd of a deal will be a Pyrrhic victory to end all of them for those who think this man is their champion. No concern of yours, obvs.

"No additional paperwork for trade between NI and the rest of the UK" - not even remotely true, confirmed by the government's own reports.

It just goes on.
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The line that bothers me most is ...
eternumviti said:
I don't question the democratic credibility of the court decision, but I do question the impartiality of the judges, and the departure of the judiciary into the political arena, both of which raise a number of perfectly legitimate questions.
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...our parliamentary sovereignty rests on the executive, the legislature and the judiciary. The suggestion that the judiciary should stay out of politics is a suggestion to undermine parliamentary sovereignty. I’m not an uncritical supporter of our constitutional arrangements as it is, but to have them undone by right wing vested self interest has historical precedents that should frighten us all
 
eternumviti said:
I don't question the democratic credibility of the court decision, but I do question the impartiality of the judges, and the departure of the judiciary into the political arena, both of which raise a number of perfectly legitimate questions. As regards the 2% decision, I hold that the lies and deceit were no worse from the leave side than they were from remain, and were quite possibly less influential in the result. I'm sure you disagree with me, and it is your right to do so, but I'm not going to come round to your side on that one.

Your reasons for wanting to stay in the EU appear to be entirely economic (and I believe less overwhelming than you), whilst my reasons for wanting to leave it are overwhelmingly moral and philosophical, and revolve around the deceit and grandiosity that constitutes the neoliberal EU project, and the right to vote for and to sanction the people who make our laws and spend our taxes. We're not going to meet on that one either, I suspect.
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It’s now possible smell the decay wafting from the demographic you represent, in your comments about the impartiality of the judiciary. What right minded Telegraph reader would have made such a claim, even five years ago? It looks as though Britain is degrading into something resembling Argentina. A coffin full of past glories and a hankering for them. You’re on your own with that.
 
SteveS1 said:
Has he though? Having a 'friend' who was prepared to (selectively or otherwise) do that to him certainly was bad judgement. But then what do you expect of a Tory?

Frank views complaining about their own party are commonly had between people of all parties. It takes a particularly unpleasant piece of shit to do that......but par for the current crop it seems.
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He was just joshing.
 
SteveS1 said:
This is just 'ends justify means' claptrap. You question the impartiality of judges, even though it was a pretty straightforward abuse of Johnson's position for no better reason than to help him personally in political terms. There was no higher minded excuse. You sound like someone at a football match who thinks the referee is biased because your team concedes a penalty. So judges are only impartial if they do as the Executive requires? Very 30s Germany.

"The lies and deceit were equal" - complete tosh that doesn't stand up to even mild scrutiny. The Leave campaign have lied and misrepresented the UK's relationship with the EU on an industrial scale. The billionaire backers, through their media organisations have for much longer. The truth of a situation doesn't matter to you or your fellow Brexiteers. Never has.

FFS the lies continue. "Get Brexit done" - not even close. "They said I wouldn't be able to re-open the WA" - nobody imagined that making it worse would even be on the table, never mind qualify as a success. Now it's an achievement? "Another victory like that and we are lost" comes to mind. Johnson's turd of a deal will be a Pyrrhic victory to end all of them for those who think this man is their champion. No concern of yours, obvs.

"No additional paperwork for trade between NI and the rest of the UK" - not even remotely true, confirmed by the government's own reports.

It just goes on.
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Please can we have a ‘multi-like’ button...
 
TheDecameron said:
It’s now possible smell the decay wafting from the demographic you represent, in your comments about the impartiality of the judiciary. What right minded Telegraph reader would have made such a claim, even five years ago? It looks as though Britain is degrading into something resembling Argentina. A coffin full of past glories and a hankering for them. You’re on your own with that.
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My old man has said the same thing to me about five times now, I think he's going senile: "when I wer a lad we got Lamb from New Zealand, Danish Bacon" etc...

Not sure where they got Gammon from when he wer a lad.

Sad really. I've tried my best to bring him around and I think he's finally seen sense and stopped giving the thumbs up to the likes of Trump and Boris, but I think he'll vote for Farage's ugly bunch come Thursday, even though he is canvassing for a local independent believe it or not!
 
A truly superb interview with Dave Merritt, the father of one of the two murdered by the terrorist on London Bridge last week, with Beth Rigby on Sky just now. Really powerful stuff laying into the repugnant Tory politicising and gammon popularism narrative forced onto the event by Johnson and how the Tory ‘hang ‘em and flog ‘em’ mindset is absolutely everything his son stood against in life. Worth catching, it can be found on the Sky site here. Yet again the lying puffed-up grandstanding buffoon gets it entirely wrong.
 
FireMoon said:
I'll make one prediction. If the Tories do get back in, they will be the first UK government since Charles 1 to be forced out of office by the public. One hopes that it will be bloodless however, I wouldn't guarantee that. Most likely scenario is a serious climate incident somewhere in the world, huge demonstrations and someone dies as result of overzealous policing and the whole lot spirals t from there. The demographic shift will become seismic in the next 2-3 years. The Tory's job will be to destroy as much of the structure of the state in that time exactly as Drumpf has done in the US.

There's another possibility as well namely that, there's another hung parliament, Labour have half a dozen more seats than the Tories and Johnson refuses to resign. Anyone who thinks that's outside of Johnson's behaviour hasn't been watching the man.
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Meanwhile here on planet Earth.
 
Tony L said:
A truly superb interview with Dave Merritt, the father of one of the two murdered by the terrorist on London Bridge last week, with Beth Rigby on Sky just now. Really powerful stuff laying into the repugnant Tory politicising and gammon popularism narrative forced onto the event by Johnson and how the Tory ‘hang ‘em and flog ‘em’ mindset is absolutely everything his son stood against in life. Worth catching, it can be found on the Sky site here. Yet again the lying puffed-up grandstanding buffoon gets it entirely wrong.
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I see the man turned down an invitation to meet Priti Patel, where she would have milked it for her hardline position on criminal justice- in flagrant disregard for the views of the victim and his family.
 
Tony L said:
A truly superb interview with Dave Merritt, the father of one of the two murdered by the terrorist on London Bridge last week, with Beth Rigby on Sky just now. Really powerful stuff laying into the repugnant Tory politicising and gammon popularism narrative forced onto the event by Johnson and how the Tory ‘hang ‘em and flog ‘em’ mindset is absolutely everything his son stood against in life. Worth catching, it can be found on the Sky site here. Yet again the lying puffed-up grandstanding buffoon gets it entirely wrong.
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I agree, it's not the sentence which lies at the root of this particular issue but the programme set in place for anyone convicted of Terror offences. A programme which is untested in full & blatantly not fit for purpose as it stands.
 
Sue Pertwee-Tyr said:
Somebody pointed out to me today that the public attitude to police shooting has now been shown, in light of London Bridge, to be largely ambivalent. I’m not sure I entirely agree, but the outrage and shock of the de Menezes case wasn’t replicated. Has there been independent corroboration that the attacker was wearing a fake suicide vest, only I’ve only seen that reported on the BBC, IIRC.
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Public safety has to come first. I'm all for rehabilitation & protecting people's rights but in instances such as this, the police have a mere second to determine if the individual is a danger to others.

It's easy sitting after the fact & analysing every minutiae of the situation but when faced with someone who could possibly set light to a bomb, they have to act as they are trained to act in situations such as this & I applaud them for it.

The police report did state the person was wearing a bomb vest so they acted precisely as they should.
 
TheDecameron said:
I see the man turned down an invitation to meet Priti Patel, where she would have milked it for her hardline position on criminal justice- in flagrant disregard for the views of the victim and his family.
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I can’t think of any scenario where I wouldn’t turn down meeting Priti Patel, or for that matter any remaining Tory MP. The few in the party I had any time or respect for have either been purged by the ERG insurgency or exited willingly to the LDs etc leaving only those who are absolutely impossible to reason with. Patel typifies the genre; entrenched, intransigent and fundamentally corrupt.
 
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