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Who's Heard the Dutch & Dutch Speakers

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tuga said:
I don't read reviews, so I can't say if it was audible to the reviewer. Don't know if he's capable of assessing performance either. Which is one of the reasons why I don't read reviews.
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Fair enough. Appreciate your honesty in selecting the bit of the review of interest to you, if I've interpreted your comments appropriately?

I think the whole review, including measurements, tells its own story (possibly biased either way).

I suppose the proof is in deciding for yourself by listening.
 
Andrew C! said:
Fair enough. Appreciate your honesty in selecting the bit of the review of interest to you, if I've interpreted your comments appropriately?

I think the whole review, including measurements, tells its own story (possibly biased either way).

I suppose the proof is in deciding for yourself by listening.
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You want to believe that the measurements performed by the National Research Council of Canada in an anechoic chamber are biased. Fine.
 
MattSPL said:
Here’s the test I was referring to, see the 2nd to last paragraph for the resonance I mentioned. http://www.audioexcite.com/?page_id=3131
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This is not the same driver used in the 8c. It is a different size and its cone is constructed from a very different material. Even if these two very different drivers exhibited similar behaviour, which seems unlikely, this would not account for the spike in the Soundstage chart, which is an order of magnitude greater than the individual driver measurement. You might want to consider alternative explanations.

I have been in touch with Martijn at Dutch & Dutch this morning. Dutch & Dutch has its own measurements, most of which were performed with help from Delft University. At high levels the distortion in the bass and low mids does rise, but in the Soundstage measurements it looks a bit higher than in Dutch & Dutch's own measurements. He is not sure how to account for the spikes further up the frequency range. Those are not present in Dutch & Dutch's own measurements.

https://www.delta.tudelft.nl/article/anechoic-chamber
 
Strictly Stereo said:
This is not the same driver used in the 8c. It is a different size and its cone is constructed from a very different material. Even if these two very different drivers exhibited similar behaviour, which seems unlikely, this would not account for the spike in the Soundstage chart, which is an order of magnitude greater than the individual driver measurement. You might want to consider alternative explanations.

I have been in touch with Martijn at Dutch & Dutch this morning. Dutch & Dutch has its own measurements, most of which were performed with help from Delft University. At high levels the distortion in the bass and low mids does rise, but in the Soundstage measurements it looks a bit higher than in Dutch & Dutch's own measurements. He is not sure how to account for the spikes further up the frequency range. Those are not present in Dutch & Dutch's own measurements.

https://www.delta.tudelft.nl/article/anechoic-chamber
Click to expand...

Poor quality control is a possibility, or incorrect measurements. I would expect each speaker to be measured at the factory - possibly as part of using DSP to correct production variations in drive unit behaviour as Kii do - in which case if the serial numbers of the review units are known D&D should be able to produce their own measurements to refute or confirm the review.
 
Strictly Stereo said:
This is not the same driver used in the 8c. It is a different size and its cone is constructed from a very different material. Even if these two very different drivers exhibited similar behaviour, which seems unlikely, this would not account for the spike in the Soundstage chart, which is an order of magnitude greater than the individual driver measurement. You might want to consider alternative explanations.

I have been in touch with Martijn at Dutch & Dutch this morning. Dutch & Dutch has its own measurements, most of which were performed with help from Delft University. At high levels the distortion in the bass and low mids does rise, but in the Soundstage measurements it looks a bit higher than in Dutch & Dutch's own measurements. He is not sure how to account for the spikes further up the frequency range. Those are not present in Dutch & Dutch's own measurements.

https://www.delta.tudelft.nl/article/anechoic-chamber
Click to expand...

No, it’s not the same driver, I was just pointing out the review and the cone resonance as every cone will suffer from some form of resonance and maybe a cone resonance was causing the problem talked about in this thread. I’ve no idea if it is the issue, I was just thinking it might be a possibility.
 
Strictly Stereo said:
This is not the same driver used in the 8c. It is a different size and its cone is constructed from a very different material. Even if these two very different drivers exhibited similar behaviour, which seems unlikely, this would not account for the spike in the Soundstage chart, which is an order of magnitude greater than the individual driver measurement. You might want to consider alternative explanations.

I have been in touch with Martijn at Dutch & Dutch this morning. Dutch & Dutch has its own measurements, most of which were performed with help from Delft University. At high levels the distortion in the bass and low mids does rise, but in the Soundstage measurements it looks a bit higher than in Dutch & Dutch's own measurements. He is not sure how to account for the spikes further up the frequency range. Those are not present in Dutch & Dutch's own measurements.

https://www.delta.tudelft.nl/article/anechoic-chamber
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Thanks.
Perhaps the demo unit has taken too much of a beating...
 
AndyU said:
Poor quality control is a possibility, or incorrect measurements. I would expect each speaker to be measured at the factory - possibly as part of using DSP to correct production variations in drive unit behaviour as Kii do - in which case if the serial numbers of the review units are known D&D should be able to produce their own measurements to refute or confirm the review.
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Every speaker is measured and has to measure identically to D&Ds master reference, every 8C is identical, which is obviously essential when manufacturing monitors.
Keith
 
MattSPL said:
No, it’s not the same driver, I was just pointing out the review and the cone resonance as every cone will suffer from some form of resonance and maybe a cone resonance was causing the problem talked about in this thread. I’ve no idea if it is the issue, I was just thinking it might be a possibility.
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Absolutely and the driver used in the 8c will exhibit a similar resonance at about 3kHz. However, in the 8c its output at 3kHz is reduced by 30dB thanks to a 24dB/octave crossover at 1.25kHz.
 
AndyU said:
Poor quality control is a possibility, or incorrect measurements. I would expect each speaker to be measured at the factory - possibly as part of using DSP to correct production variations in drive unit behaviour as Kii do - in which case if the serial numbers of the review units are known D&D should be able to produce their own measurements to refute or confirm the review.
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Dutch & Dutch tests each individual component prior to assembly and a battery of tests is applied to completed speakers, but to my knowledge they do not measure each individual speaker in an anechoic chamber. Neither does Kii.
 
Purité Audio said:
Every speaker is measured and has to measure identically to D&Ds master reference, every 8C is identical, which is obviously essential when manufacturing monitors.
Keith
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Then it should be easy for them to produce the measurements of the review pair. Even better, offer to remeasure them. Maybe something broke, maybe something was set up wrong, maybe the guy doing the measuring didn’t know what he was doing. You can’t use graphs to sell products and then deny that they are true when they don’t suit your sales pitch.
 
Strictly Stereo said:
Dutch & Dutch tests each individual component prior to assembly and a battery of tests is applied to completed speakers, but to my knowledge they do not measure each individual speaker in an anechoic chamber. Neither does Kii.
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The issue at 2k would not need an anechoic chamber to measure. I am pretty sure I read that Kii adjust the DSP in each speaker to correct for production variations between individual drive units. This wouldn’t need an anechoic chamber either.
 
AndyU said:
The issue at 2k would not need an anechoic chamber to measure. I am pretty sure I read that Kii adjust the DSP in each speaker to correct for production variations between individual drive units. This wouldn’t need an anechoic chamber either.
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Indeed:

 
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