Who's Heard the Dutch & Dutch Speakers

[tuga]

I see. I will ask Martijn about it the next time we speak. My best guess is that it is an artefact of measuring the speakers anechoically. They are designed to perform best in a real room (with walls). It does not appear to have affected the outcome of the review...

https://www.soundstagehifi.com/index.php/equipment-reviews/1270-dutch-dutch-8c-active-loudspeakers

I never read reviews (they're always glowing) so I can't comment on that but there is a possibility that it could be an artefact.

There's also a noteworthy spike of distortion just below 2k which could be a cone breakup resonance; does it sport a "hard" cone in the midrange driver?

 

[Strictly Stereo]

I never read reviews (they're always glowing) so I can't comment on that but there is a possibility that it could be an artefact.

There's also a noteworthy spike of distortion just below 2k which could be a cone breakup resonance; does it sport a "hard" cone in the midrange driver?

The mid/bass driver uses an aluminium cone, but that driver is crossed at 1,250Hz.

 

[tuga]

The mid/bass driver uses an aluminium cone, but that driver is crossed at 1,250Hz.

I think that is close enough to be a cone resonance, even with a steep low-pass.
Is it outsourced from one of the usual suspects or made to order?

 

[Strictly Stereo]

I think that is close enough to be a cone resonance, even with a steep low-pass.
Is it outsourced from one of the usual suspects or made to order?

Doubtful. Breakup in a driver of this size would occur at around 3kHz.

The crossover frequencies are specifically selected so that each driver operates in a pistonic fashion (without break up).

 

[Andrew C!]

Mmm. Measurements and artifacts v perceived sound quality discussion...

 

[Knipester]

I’ve not posted on the thread for a while as I have been too busy enjoying my 8c’s

If you want a speaker that doesn’t dominate your room as it loves to sit close to the front wall, delivers full range sound down to 20hz with zero boom, images fantastically, removes pretty much all of your system making a very simple solution then I’d stop worrying about the measurements and take a listen.

Everyone that’s heard my 8c’s in my listening room have been blown away by what they do. Since owning them I’ve not had any desire to go into the settings, move them, buy more stuff, I’m simply back to enjoying music. Some stuff I’ve not listened to for years has been back in play and sounding better than ever.

Of course there are other options to deliver great sound but they often will come with their own compromises including cost, box count, physical size, acoustic treatment etc.

 

[tuga]

Doubtful. Breakup in a driver of this size would occur at around 3kHz.

The crossover frequencies are specifically selected so that each driver operates in a pistonic fashion (without break up).

You are correct, but sometimes theory cannot be put in practice.

 

[tuga]

Mmm. Measurements and artifacts v perceived sound quality discussion...

5% distortion is definitely audible even if some may require training to do so.
Whether this is objectionable or pleasant depends is on the ear of the beholder...

 

[Purité Audio]

Martijn, discusses pistonic behaviour and only uses drivers within their passband in this post,
Courtesy Gearslutz,
‘
We don't listen to the driver until it is in the actual system. Your selection process in my view will always lead to drivers that have a large bandwidth and have a smooth response even far outside the intended passband. Rigid cone drivers will not pass that test, because of the resonances outside the passband. I don't find it very surprising you ended up with a paper cone midrange. We select drivers mainly based on measured performance within the intended passband, including the crossover-region.



Quote:



The tweeter in the 8c has a diaphragm made out of a aluminium and magnesium based alloy. In the past metal domes had a bit of a bad rep, because early versions often had their first break-up within the audio band. Modern metal domes usually have their first break-up close to 30 khz or even higher. As long as the resonance is not excited, it's inconsequential.

We prefer to work with drivers that have pistonic behavior within their passband, but of course, great speakers can be made with drivers with a wide variety of cone materials. In the past I used several paper cone drivers by Vifa and those speakers sounded great. I particularly loved the Vifa PL11MH, a very sweet sounding midrange driver. Soft domes can sound great too.

The performance of a speaker ultimately depends much more on the implementation than what material the drivers are actually made of. If a loudspeaker is well-designed, it generally will be difficult to tell what material the drivers are made from by listening alone.

 

[Strictly Stereo]

You are correct, but sometimes theory cannot be put in practice.

Yes, but this is a loudspeaker not a fusion reactor. It's not terribly difficult to determine the frequency at which breakup occurs for any given driver. Most likely there is another explanation for the blip in the measurements.

 

[tuga]

Yes, but this is a loudspeaker not a fusion reactor. It's not terribly difficult to determine the frequency at which breakup occurs for any given driver. Most likely there is another explanation for the blip in the measurements.

Innocent until proven guilty.
It is a strange blip, too narrow perhaps for a cone resonance. But something is causing it.

I'm more curious about the high distortion in the bass. Wonder if it is really just an artifact.

 

[Strictly Stereo]

Innocent until proven guilty.
It is a strange blip, too narrow perhaps for a cone resonance. But something is causing it.

I'm more curious about the high distortion in the bass. Wonder if it is really just an artifact.

I cannot explain it but I am sure that there is an explanation. The authors point out in the article that the 8c is optimised for use close to the front wall and that an anechoic chamber has (effectively) no walls at all. I am curious to hear Dutch & Dutch's take on these measurements, but it really doesn't matter to me how any loudspeaker measures in an anechoic chamber. What does matter to me is how they measure in a real room. More important than any measurement is how they sound. Come and have a listen to a pair. I don't think you'll be concerned about charts afterwards.

 

[tuga]

I cannot explain it but I am sure that there is an explanation. The authors point out in the article that the 8c is optimised for use close to the front wall and that an anechoic chamber has (effectively) no walls at all.

I understand that the 8C needs a wall to achieve its best balance but I can find no reasoning to explain why not having a wall wouldincrease distortion, unless perhaps the speaker is actively compensating by putting out mode power.

I am curious to hear Dutch & Dutch's take on these measurements, but it really doesn't matter to me how any loudspeaker measures in an anechoic chamber. What does matter to me is how they measure in a real room. More important than any measurement is how they sound. Come and have a listen to a pair. I don't think you'll be concerned about charts afterwards.

Measurements highlight shortcomings (which may or may not be audible).
Notwithstanding, I would love to listen to a pair someday but you're a bit too far from Oxford.

 

[Strictly Stereo]

Notwithstanding, I would love to listen to a pair someday but you're a bit too far from Oxford.

I travel up and down the M6 fairly regularly. Oxford is not too far.

 

[MattSPL]

I never read reviews (they're always glowing) so I can't comment on that but there is a possibility that it could be an artefact.

There's also a noteworthy spike of distortion just below 2k which could be a cone breakup resonance; does it sport a "hard" cone in the midrange driver?

I’d say rather than a breakup resonance it is possibly the drive units rubber surround resonance. This occurs in the drive units I have in my speakers and possibly every other drive unit out there.

 

[Strictly Stereo]

I’d say rather than a breakup resonance it is possibly the drive units rubber surround resonance. This occurs in the drive units I have in my speakers and possibly every other drive unit out there.

I think that would have been picked up in testing. And wouldn't a resonance of any kind show a corresponding bump in the amplitude response measurements?

 

[MattSPL]

I think that would have been picked up in testing. And wouldn't a resonance of any kind show a corresponding bump in the amplitude response measurements?

I’m not sure to be honest. I just remember reading the bench test of the drivers I use and there’s a resonance caused by the cone surround. Every driver will have this at a certain frequency, just like the Fs(resonant frequency) of the driver itself.
But this may not be what is causing what has been pointed out in this thread.

 

[tuga]

I’d say rather than a breakup resonance it is possibly the drive units rubber surround resonance. This occurs in the drive units I have in my speakers and possibly every other drive unit out there.

What material is it made of?
I think that 1.7KHz is a bit high for rubber but I'm not an expert.

 

[Andrew C!]

5% distortion is definitely audible even if some may require training to do so.
Whether this is objectionable or pleasant depends is on the ear of the beholder...

I read the review. Did I miss the bit where they said it was audible?

 

[tuga]

I read the review. Did I miss the bit where they said it was audible?

I don't read reviews, so I can't say if it was audible to the reviewer. Don't know if he's capable of assessing performance either. Which is one of the reasons why I don't read reviews.