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What Brexit tells us

Tony L said:
Assuming we don't get too distracted by racist horseshit from the far-right, which is obvious a huge concern at present, the concept of universal basic income is gaining traction right across the political spectrum. It seems pretty much the only logical way out of the current mess. It has been discussed by everyone from Yanis Varoufakis through to the Bilderberg Group of late!

PS The Lib Dems believe in proportional representation and to my mind little of value is possible until we ditch the strangle-hold the two archaic and failed parties have on things. The two-headed beast must die. Out of the main parties I also think the Lib Dems are by far the most sensible and progressive. I don't know exactly what their views on universal basic income etc are, but I suspect they would think about it long before it appeared on the radar of Labour or the Conservatives and UKIP are just a shower of racist right-wing trough-feeding shit. That leaves the Lib Dems and the SNP!
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Well, it's certainly on Corbyn's radar


https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-to-launch-review-into-universal-basic-income


and probably the Lib Dems' too. I don't know how radical it is, given that all the hard work would have to have been done before it serves the interests of anyone but capital: that is, it would require a radical left government to implement it, otherwise it would be most likely just be used to cut wages and public services.

I think drood's right: the future is either billionaire bunkers or a total redistribution of wealth. I'm pretty sure, based on current form, that the entire political establishment, apart from the Corbynites, would cleave to the former if it came down to it. The solution to the problem, if it comes at all, is not going to seem reasonable to many, and I don't think it will come from politicians.
 
Tony L said:
PS The Lib Dems believe in proportional representation and to my mind little of value is possible until we ditch the strangle-hold the two archaic and failed parties have on things. The two-headed beast must die. Out of the main parties I also think the Lib Dems are by far the most sensible and progressive. I don't know exactly what their views on universal basic income etc are, but I suspect they would think about it long before it appeared on the radar of Labour or the Conservatives and UKIP are just a shower of racist right-wing trough-feeding shit. That leaves the Lib Dems and the SNP!
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Crikey +1.

Plus maybe 20% Green Party.
 
Seanm said:
I think drood's right: the future is either billionaire bunkers or a total redistribution of wealth. I'm pretty sure, based on current form, that the entire political establishment, apart from the Corbynites, would cleave to the former if it came down to it. The solution to the problem, if it comes at all, is not going to seem reasonable to many, and I don't think it will come from politicians.
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There will have to be a major change, if not a revolution. The political establishment, other than the Corbynites, are not in favour of wealth redistribution. In fact they have gone the other way.

According to Wiki "In economics and sociology, the means of production are physical, non-human inputs used for the production of economic value, such as facilities, machinery, tools, infrastructural capital and natural capital."

Maybe Karl Marx has been right all along. If corporations, banks and hedge funds, don't underwrite the government through tax to pay for a basic income, there will be a battle to control the means of production, not just in the UK but worldwide.

There is more than enough wealth to put everybody in the UK on a basic income. Finland has already started doing this and other countries are experimenting. The future could be great or very bloody. The last person I would trust is Little Englander T May.

Jack
 
I see Farage has been working on European relations with both Germany and France. It appears as though he has been regularly using the euro tunnel without permission from the boss. Oops.
 
Tony L said:
Assuming we don't get too distracted by racist horseshit from the far-right, which is obvious a huge concern at present, the concept of universal basic income is gaining traction right across the political spectrum. It seems pretty much the only logical way out of the current mess. It has been discussed by everyone from Yanis Varoufakis through to the Bilderberg Group of late!

PS The Lib Dems believe in proportional representation and to my mind little of value is possible until we ditch the strangle-hold the two archaic and failed parties have on things. The two-headed beast must die. Out of the main parties I also think the Lib Dems are by far the most sensible and progressive. I don't know exactly what their views on universal basic income etc are, but I suspect they would think about it long before it appeared on the radar of Labour or the Conservatives and UKIP are just a shower of racist right-wing trough-feeding shit. That leaves the Lib Dems and the SNP!
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I agree with much of that but definitely not the inclusion of the SNP. The clue is in the name. They are nationalists that at this moment in time happen to have a leader who talks a good story. They really would lead Scotland to economic oblivion, imo.

Don't forget that much of the issues today could have been avoided had the LibDems shown some backbone in 2010. They had the opportunity to change UK politics forever, we could have had PR but they let it pass. I don't think they can be trusted and their leader is worse than Corbyn for Labour.

A new party with new ideas is what I hope will come about.
 
I have a lot of respect for the SNP as they seem to be the only progressive EU-friendly party with real traction in the UK at present. I really don't want to see Scotland break off, but given the choice of independence or being shackled to an increasingly right-wing and isolationist England I can see their point. The sad thing is they are just so much better at doing the left-of-centre/progressive/social democrat thing than Labour they have totally wiped them out as a UK election-winning force. Labour could learn a heck of a lot from them, and they need to do so fast if they are after anything but a disaster in 2020. I have to admit the idea of moving to Scotland has crossed my mind a few times as I so much prefer their politics to Tory Little England.

PS I would love to see a credible progressive centrist party emerge, though I can't see it unless/until Labour really crash and burn at the next election (assuming they do, and that all depends on what kind of pig's arse May makes of Brexit).
 
Brian said:
I agree with much of that but definitely not the inclusion of the SNP. The clue is in the name. They are nationalists that at this moment in time happen to have a leader who talks a good story. They really would lead Scotland to economic oblivion, imo.

Don't forget that much of the issues today could have been avoided had the LibDems shown some backbone in 2010. They had the opportunity to change UK politics forever, we could have had PR but they let it pass. I don't think they can be trusted and their leader is worse than Corbyn for Labour.

A new party with new ideas is what I hope will come about.
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I agree about the Lib Dems. I stupidly bought Clegg and Vince Cable's blather in 2010. Feeling lied to and undermined by Labour's Tory whip-boy Tony Blair, I voted Lib Dem for the first time. What a stupid mistake.

Clegg supported some of the worst legislation I can remember. As you mention, the Lib Dems had a chance for PR but let it pass. They failed on virtually every count. I would never vote for them again and don't trust them at all, especially when the UK is entering an uncertain situation like Brexit.

I don't however think your assessment of the SNP is completely correct. Yes they are a nationalist party and I hope they gain independence and stay in the EU. I have been thinking about moving there if the May's Little Englanders carry out the hard Brexit they are after.

The last place I want to live is in a racist, economically crippled, country ruled over by the Tories, for that is what England would become if May gets her way. The member states of the EU know this, so she is on the back foot when it comes to negotiating. This is why Trumpland is so important to her.

Unfortunately the Tories, UKIP and the Brexiteers, are living in a delusion. The last person who will save England is Trump. He will exploit it for all its worth. That is how he does business. This is why moving to Scotland is a potentially great idea.

Jack
 
The SNP government have stated that our economy needs around 300,000 immigrants in the short to medium term and is one of the reasons they and we in Scotland expressly wished to remain in the EU.
We want to remain an open economy and an open society yet we remain joined to one that would appear to be travelling in the opposite direction.
There are two species of nationalism at work here- the civic in Scotland and the nativist in England. It's a striking difference in outlook, hence the striking difference in the Brexit referendum.
 
jackbarron said:
I agree about the Lib Dems. I stupidly bought Clegg and Vince Cable's blather in 2010. Feeling lied to and undermined by Labour's Tory whip-boy Tony Blair, I voted Lib Dem for the first time. What a stupid mistake.

Clegg supported some of the worst legislation I can remember. As you mention, the Lib Dems had a chance for PR but let it pass. They failed on virtually every count. I would never vote for them again and don't trust them at all, especially when the UK is entering an uncertain situation like Brexit.

I don't however think your assessment of the SNP is completely correct. Yes they are a nationalist party and I hope they gain independence and stay in the EU. I have been thinking about moving there if the May's Little Englanders carry out the hard Brexit they are after.

The last place I want to live is in a racist, economically crippled, country ruled over by the Tories, for that is what England would become if May gets her way. The member states of the EU know this, so she is on the back foot when it comes to negotiating. This is why Trumpland is so important to her.

Unfortunately the Tories, UKIP and the Brexiteers, are living in a delusion. The last person who will save England is Trump. He will exploit it for all its worth. That is how he does business. This is why moving to Scotland is a potentially great idea.

Jack
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Jack,

I've lived in Scotland for 2 different periods of my life. I like Scotland and I like the Scots, I could live there again and have seriously considered doing that in a couple of years time when I stop working.

The trouble is, ultimately nationalists have the same motivation wherever they come from, they are small-minded and insular. For people admiring the SNP, would there be support for an 'English Nationalist Party' assuming such a thing stood for exactly the same for England as the SNP does for Scotland?

If Scotland does gain independence I see no way they will be allowed membership of the EU, their economy will be weak, people will struggle and the ugly side of nationalism could take a very firm grip as they look for scapegoats. Scotland won't be the same place. For their own good, despite the tories, Scotland needs to remain part of the UK, imo.
 
Brian said:
JIf Scotland does gain independence I see no way they will be allowed membership of the EU, their economy will be weak, people will struggle and the ugly side of nationalism could take a very firm grip as they look for scapegoats. Scotland won't be the same place. For their own good, despite the tories, Scotland needs to remain part of the UK, imo.
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We'll just have to differ on that for the moment and see how things unfurl.

Jack
 
Brian said:
The trouble is, ultimately nationalists have the same motivation wherever they come from, they are small-minded and insular. For people admiring the SNP, would there be support for an 'English Nationalist Party' assuming such a thing stood for exactly the same for England as the SNP does for Scotland?
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You have to admit the SNP vision of an inclusive, progressive European Scotland is a polar opposite to the popularist hard-right xenophobia and isolationism of Tory Brexit England. They could not be more different and the Little England of the Tories and UKIP has way, way more ugly nationalism to it than anything occuring in Scotland. In most respects the SNP are using independence to try and distance themselves from this ugly stain on the UK.
 
Brian's doing a lot of projecting. The arrant "Scotland for the Scots" fiction he tried peddling-is utterly at odds with stated government policy.

And the constant need to somehow offset this line by repeating-


I like Scotland and I like the Scots, I could live there again and have seriously considered doing that in a couple of years time when I stop working.
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... the lady doth protest too much, methinks.
 
Beyond having a referendum to change the voting system and campaigning for a yes vote, what else could the Lib Dems in 2010 have done towards PR?
 
Mikeandvan said:
Really? You saw some 'poor people', who are you Charles Dickens? And how did they look to you kind sir? Please describe a 'poor person', cos these days, its actually quite hard, when the CEO of Facebook, and many other companies wear jeans and T-shirt all day ****ing long.
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You don't see many CEOs hanging about charity shops, pubs and bookie shops in the middle of the day.
 
Tony L said:
You have to admit the SNP vision of an inclusive, progressive European Scotland is a polar opposite to the popularist hard-right xenophobia and isolationism of Tory Brexit England. They could not be more different and the Little England of the Tories and UKIP has way, way more ugly nationalism to it than anything occuring in Scotland. In most respects the SNP are using independence to try and distance themselves from this ugly stain on the UK.
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Oh yes, they are not the same as the tories but in the end, they are only really interested in Scotland. Forget the tories for a moment, the UK had a Labour govt for 13 years. Ask yourself why
does the SNP want to be part of the EU but not part of the UK?

TheDecameron said:
Brian's doing a lot of projecting. The arrant "Scotland for the Scots" fiction he tried peddling-is utterly at odds with stated government policy.

And the constant need to somehow offset this line by repeating-




... the lady doth protest too much, methinks.
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Except it's true. 5 years in total. The friends I made were all in a different league to how you come over on this forum.

I think the SNP will ultimately wreck Scotland.
 
Brian said:
Ask yourself why
does the SNP want to be part of the EU but not part of the UK?
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I guess because, pending national Brexit catastrophe, aside Labour are totally unelectable and it looks likely an ugly right-wing Tory Little England driven from the south is the reality for the foreseeable future. Our flawed and biased electoral system will keep on returning absolute Tory rule with a minority vote. We are basically f***ed. The only hope we have is that May screws Brexit up so badly and so obviously to all that even Corbyn starts to look like a valid way out!
 
Its not only the Scots and Northern Irish who want to get the hell away from a right wing Tory government operating in lock step with UKIP- there's millions in England who feel the same! Give us the EU anytime!
 
Tony L said:
I guess because, pending national Brexit catastrophe, aside Labour are totally unelectable and it looks likely an ugly right-wing Tory Little England driven from the south is the reality for the foreseeable future. Our flawed and biased electoral system will keep on returning absolute Tory rule with a minority vote. We are basically f***ed. The only hope we have is that May screws Brexit up so badly and so obviously to all that even Corbyn starts to look like a valid way out!
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Tony, The SNP has wanted Scottish independence since well before brexit, well before Labour got into the mess it's in now.
 
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