What Brexit tells us

[Cav]

Thinking outside the box fail.

What is the thinking outside the box win then?

 

[Tony L]

@ TonyL: I can, of course cite myriad examples where Trades Union have benefited millions of people, even those, like you, who received the benefits without inconveniencing themselves either financially or otherwise but were and are happy to enjoy what others have won for them - and then to abuse those who are still fighting for the rights of workers.

Technological progress? The slower the better where it leads to a more impoverished workforce.

Though you can't cite a single example to answer my question. Thought not. Unions were hugely important in the days of mass labour and you are very wrong to assume I don't see that. They were unquestionably a force for good back in the days of mills, mines etc. Those days have now passed as mass labour is increasingly no longer required. I'm sure you are sitting there smugly thinking the RMT or whoever got one over on Southern Rail last week. In a lot of ways I hope you are right as I detest SR and their ilk, but my suspicion is they will just have achieved a stay of execution as proper driverless, let alone conductor-less trains are but a few years away. Once the technology is sufficiently refined and tested they'll just sack the whole lot of 'em and there is bugger all any union can do. Even more so given so many of the C2D3 etc demographic have voted for Brexit and will shortly be having nice sensible EU employment legislation replaced by stuff drawn up by Tory monsters like IDS etc. I'd hate to be an employee in this climate and I'm hugely grateful I'm well off the map doing my own thing. Don't mistake that for my not seeing the bigger picture... I think I have a fair idea where things are heading and I don't like it at all...

 

[Colin Barron]

@ TonyL:

Technological progress? The slower the better where it leads to a more impoverished workforce.

This logic only works if everyone plays by the same Luddite rule book. History has shown us that companies with the most advanced technology survive and the rest fall by the wayside. Even with government subsidies the same result accurs it just takes longer.

 

[Darth Vader]

I didn't realise Blue Peter had an economic vision, but the winners in this one certainly won't be your 1970s trade union brethren walking out in a sulk when automated trains etc can do the job so much better than they can. This technology is coming, make no mistake about it, and it is coming to the areas Stephen indicates up thread not just the low-skill stuff. Just think about what Siri, Cortana, Amazon Echo etc actually are and how they work for a minute. Once that penny has dropped now apply that technology to call centres and pretty much anywhere that relies on a basic decision tree/referenced knowledge skillset. That is a heck of a lot of jobs right there. Now apply that logic to the logistics and pick systems in distribution warehouses. Think about it for any real length of time and the only people likely to survive employed are the real innovators (i.e. those that actually think up new roles for themselves), artists and artisans, e.g. it is very unlikely anyone is going to want to read a book or buy a painting created by a robot, but the more standard office or service jobs? Meh. Folk will just go by price, performance and convenience.

The Docklands Light Railway has run driverless via computer for the last 30 years. Next time you are in the smoke take a trip from Bank and spend a day visiting the Docklands. The only staff (and there aren't many) are at the stations. I don't know if they have ticket inspectors but when I used to travel to clients in Docklands I never saw one.

Cheers,

DV

 

[kendo]

The replicants are right here, right now!

 

[Tony L]

The Docklands Light Railway has run driverless via computer for the last 30 years. Next time you are in the smoke take a trip from Bank and spend a day visiting the Docklands. The only staff (and there aren't many) are at the stations. I don't know if they have ticket inspectors but when I used to travel to clients in Docklands I never saw one.

Indeed, I've used that line several times.

 

[Cav]

Though you can't cite a single example to answer my question. Thought not. Unions were hugely important in the days of mass labour and you are very wrong to assume I don't see that. They were unquestionably a force for good back in the days of mills, mines etc. Those days have now passed as mass labour is increasingly no longer required. I'm sure you are sitting there smugly thinking the RMT or whoever got one over on Southern Rail last week. In a lot of ways I hope you are right as I detest SR and their ilk, but my suspicion is they will just have achieved a stay of execution as proper driverless, let alone conductor-less trains are but a few years away. Once the technology is sufficiently refined and tested they'll just sack the whole lot of 'em and there is bugger all any union can do. Even more so given so many of the C2D3 etc demographic have voted for Brexit and will shortly be having nice sensible EU employment legislation replaced by stuff drawn up by Tory monsters like IDS etc. I'd hate to be an employee in this climate and I'm hugely grateful I'm well off the map doing my own thing. Don't mistake that for my not seeing the bigger picture... I think I have a fair idea where things are heading and I don't like it at all...

I don't think you give a shit about anyone but yourself and there are too many like you who have enjoyed the benefits hard won by others but don't see the hypocrisy of having (someone else's) cake and eating it.

You don't like where we are going but are happy to leave it to others to sort out for you.

I have been a union member for all my life and I despise people who sponge of others and then criticise them for trying to maintain their members standard of living.

 

[Cav]

This logic only works if everyone plays by the same Luddite rule book. History has shown us that companies with the most advanced technology survive and the rest fall by the wayside. Even with government subsidies the same result accurs it just takes longer.

What about the people who need a job? Never mind, you clearly don't care so long as it is not you.

 

[Tony L]

I don't think you give a shit about anyone but yourself and there are too many like you who have enjoyed the benefits hard won by others but don't see the hypocrisy of having (someone else's) cake and eating it.

You don't like where we are going but are happy to leave it to others to sort out for you.

I have been a union member for all my life and I despise people who sponge of others and then criticise them for trying to maintain their members standard of living.

You appear to have severe reading/comprehension issues as I've said none of the things you attribute to me. I guess given your argument is so non-existent ad hominem is all you have to hurl.

PS People like you won't "sort it out" for us as you clearly don't even understand the f***ing question!

 

[Brian]

I think it's generally true many people critical of Unions take for granted improvements to working conditions that were hard fought and won by Unions.

 

[misterdog]

Out smashing up Jacquard looms again I guess!

Should the modern equivalent not be 'out smashing the CD copying plants' (1980's) ?

Though since the demise of CD (contentious), and the reinstating of the vinyl pressing plants show some kind of hope for the future.

 

[Tony L]

I think it's generally true many people critical of Unions take for granted improvements to working conditions that were hard fought and won by Unions.

I agree and I've regularly praised the NHS and teaching unions for standing up to Tory stupidity etc, I am very much on their side. I just happen to believe that in the face of high-tech automation many workers with or without unions are increasingly up shit creek without a paddle. Any entity that relies on the organised mass withdrawal of labour to make its point is nullified once that labour is unneeded. My pointing out what I think is on the way does not for a minute mean I support or welcome that direction. I suspect we are headed somewhere quite dark for a while as this stuff really is not going away.

 

[Brian]

I wouldn't disagree but I think it is further away than some here believe.

 

[Cav]

You appear to have severe reading/comprehension issues as I've said none of the things you attribute to me. I guess given your argument is so non-existent ad hominem is all you have to hurl.

PS People like you won't "sort it out" for us as you clearly don't even understand the f***ing question!

"ad hominem is all you have to hurl" - priceless.

I don't care what you think Tony, your interest is self-interest. Unionists are better than that and have been for a century.

 

[NeilR]

What about the people who need a job? Never mind, you clearly don't care so long as it is not you.

Due to your blind dogmatism, you seem not to have realised that this is why some people are floating the idea of a universal basic income to take into account that there will be a large amount of people who will never actually work.

these ideas may seem a bit abstract at the moment, but the time will soon be upon us when we have to re-evaluate the nature of work, welfare and people's role in society. a whole new set of challenges awaits.

 

[Seanm]

It is more than that as far as I can see it, e.g. fewer jobs, fewer taxes plus ever diminishing spending power within the majority = total system fail. Unless we radically change direction and totally rethink how the very obvious profits and benefits from automation etc are distributed within a society.

It's difficult to square this kind of statement with your support for the Lib Dems. I do get the impression you think this total rethink will involve a handful of decent, intelligent people taking having a serious discussion and making the necessary adjustments to basically sound but slightly outdated institutions.

 

[Colin Barron]

What about the people who need a job? Never mind, you clearly don't care so long as it is not you.

That is 1970s union way of thinking which results in no jobs instead of less jobs.

 

[Tony L]

It's difficult to square this kind of statement with your support for the Lib Dems. I do get the impression you think this total rethink will involve a handful of decent, intelligent people taking having a serious discussion and making the necessary adjustments to basically sound but slightly outdated institutions.

Assuming we don't get too distracted by racist horseshit from the far-right, which is obvious a huge concern at present, the concept of universal basic income is gaining traction right across the political spectrum. It seems pretty much the only logical way out of the current mess. It has been discussed by everyone from Yanis Varoufakis through to the Bilderberg Group of late!

PS The Lib Dems believe in proportional representation and to my mind little of value is possible until we ditch the strangle-hold the two archaic and failed parties have on things. The two-headed beast must die. Out of the main parties I also think the Lib Dems are by far the most sensible and progressive. I don't know exactly what their views on universal basic income etc are, but I suspect they would think about it long before it appeared on the radar of Labour or the Conservatives and UKIP are just a shower of racist right-wing trough-feeding shit. That leaves the Lib Dems and the SNP!

 

[Mikeandvan]

I didn't want Brexit and argued against it. But rather than just rail about it being a disaster maybe it tells us something we need to deal with. Behind all the declarations of rising nationalism there is the failure of the economics of globalisation.

Trade should be good for all involved, but some people have undoubtedly suffered. During the week I was in Fife and saw how poor some people looked. I have seen this in many places up here. Heavy industry has died and manufacturing has disappeared. What jobs have replaced them, not much apart from zero hours contracts in distribution centres it seems. Not everyone can be a solicitor or a teacher.

At the end of the day we may have to put up with dearer prices in the shops to help UK industry and prevent the social fabric of the country being torn apart.

* Ceterus paribus

Really? You saw some 'poor people', who are you Charles Dickens? And how did they look to you kind sir? Please describe a 'poor person', cos these days, its actually quite hard, when the CEO of Facebook, and many other companies wear jeans and T-shirt all day ****ing long.

 

[Colin Barron]

Assuming we don't get too distracted by racist horseshit from the far-right, which is obvious a huge concern at present, the concept of universal basic income is gaining traction right across the political spectrum. It seems pretty much the only logical way out of the current mess. It has been discussed by everyone from Yanis Varoufakis through to the Bilderberg Group of late!

PS The Lib Dems believe in proportional representation and to my mind little of value is possible until we ditch the strangle-hold the two archaic and failed parties have on things. The two-headed beast must die. Out of the main parties I also think the Lib Dems are by far the most sensible and progressive. I don't know exactly what their views on universal basic income etc are, but I suspect they would think about it long before it appeared on the radar of Labour or the Conservatives and UKIP are just a shower of racist right-wing trough-feeding shit. That leaves the Lib Dems and the SNP!

I thought the government were moving away giving away an income, even for people who have been paying NI contributions for forty odd years and were expecting a pension.