War declared, Israel v Palestine...

[glenda]

I think that everyone realises that the last thing Israel wants is for the hostages to be returned.

 

[ks.234]

This is further exacerbated by the fact that Hamas wants as many civilian casualties as possible, while by not freeing the hostages makes it impossible for Israel to end its campaign in Gaza.

No. To say that Hamas wants as many civilian casualties as possible is nothing but a supposition without evidence.

They well might have a callous attitude to innocent lives, but Netanyahu and his supporters are marrying a callous attitude with bombs, bullets, deliberate starvation and deprivation of the means of life to innocents.

What is obvious that the ever increasing number of innocent civilians is at the hands of the Israeli government and it’s supporters.

The war crimes and genocide happening in Gaza are part of a wider and older colonial settler project.

 

[PaulMB]

Are you sure that Hamas hasn't offered to release all the hostages? I thought I had read they have made offers to do that, maybe more than once.

How do you know that Hamas "wants as many civilian casualties as possible"?

It is hard to know exactly what goes on in the various rounds of negotiations, involving Qatar, the US, Egypt, Hamas ( and Iran behind them). But it is clear that any offers Hamas may have made are unacceptable to Israel, and any offers Israel may have made are unacceptable to Hamas. The hypothetical "final offensive" in Rafah and Israel's ongoing attacks (which seem to have wound down in recent weeks) on one side, and the fate of the hostages on the other, are the grim bargaining points.

I think everyone agrees that the October 7 mass murder of Israelis had the purpose of forcing a reaction from Israel, inevitably leading to massive civilian casualties in Gaza, while the taking of 250 hostages was to make absolutely sure that Israel would have to react. And civilian casualties have proved to be excellent PR material for Hamas.

 

[PaulMB]

No. To say that Hamas wants as many civilian casualties as possible is noting but a supposition without evidence.

It is obvious to anyone with basic common sense.

What is obvious that the ever increasing number of innocent civilians is at the hands of the Israeli government and it’s supporters.

Yes and no.

The war crimes and genocide happening in Gaza are part of a wider and older colonial settler project.

Hamas is a consequence of the older, wider project now pursued by Netanyahu and his supporters, not the cause.

If Hamas is the problem, why isn't the West Bank an oasis of calm and cooperation?

Hamas also has a very strong presence in the West Bank. Not that the Israeli settlements there are justifiable, in my opinion. But, as you suggest, it is all part of a decades-long conflict with no "good guys" on one side and "bad guys" on the other.

 

[KrisW]

The idea that the loss of life is in any way justified by the so called fight against Hamas is a nonsense.

Whose idea is that? Certainly not mine.

 

[ks.234]

It is obvious to anyone with basic common sense.

No, common sense and simple observation of the facts will show that war crimes and genocide against innocent Palestinian civilians in Gaza is being conducted by Netanyahu and his supporters.

The ‘they made is do it’ argument is from the playground.

Yes and no.

Hamas also has a very strong presence in the West Bank. Not that the Israeli settlements there are justifiable, in my opinion. But, as you suggest, it is all part of a decades-long conflict with no "good guys" on one side and "bad guys" on the other.

You flip between ‘on the one hand, on the other’ to ‘it’s all the fault of Hamas’ and ‘it only started on Oct 7’.

What is happening in Gaza is indeed part of a decades long colonial settler project, which will obviously create conflict, that what is happening in Gaza is part of that decades long project should be obvious to anyone with basic common sense

 

[-alan-]

This is further exacerbated by the fact that Hamas wants as many civilian casualties as possible, while by not freeing the hostages makes it impossible for Israel to end its campaign in Gaza.

That's simply not true Paul. What you describe is a precondition set by someone in authority that can be changed at any time they choose.

 

[mandryka]

I think everyone agrees that the October 7 mass murder of Israelis had the purpose of forcing a reaction from Israel, inevitably leading to massive civilian casualties in Gaza,

Massive civilian casualties was not inevitable. Sorry to knit pick a word, but this is precisely the sort of disingenuousness which we've seen so often from the defenders of Israel.

 

[mandryka]

That's a bit flippant given the loss of life involved, and it's not even an accurate summary of the evil that's playing out in Gaza.

Of course Hamas is the target, just as the Viet Cong was for the US Army. But the IDF, outdoing even the Americans in Vietnam, has prosecuted a campaign that they know can only result in massive civilian casualties. Contrary to your inference, they are not targeting anyone but Hamas. The disgusting part of it is that the directors of this campaign simply don't care how many innocent lives are lost for each enemy kill. This is the level of inhumanity that Netanyahu and his right-wing stringpullers have dragged Israel down to. (yeah, yeah, Israel was no saint before, but this is an imperfect world, and the choice everyone has is only to move toward good or evil - he chose evil).

This wanton destruction is the evil perpetrated by Netanyahu and Galant. This is why the ICC had issued warrants against them. But the ICC warrants are against them as individuals, for the actions they have carried out using the apparatus of the Israeli state; it is not a condemnation of Israel itself, just as the arrest of Slobodan Milosovic was not a charge against the state of Serbia. I am uncomfortable with the way some commentators lazily equate Netanyahu with Israel.

Or, to put it another way: I despise the current UK government; I do not despise the British people. When condemning the atrocities of the Israeli government, I am careful to put the blame where it lies: not on "Jews", not on "Israel" as a concept or a country, but the scum that has captured that state over the past two decades and used all its powers to oppose any peaceful resolution of this mess. I can't say I'm keen on the people who vote for Netanyahu and those further right of him, but I refuse to believe that Israel is the only place on earth where normally decent people can't be frightened into voting for the most disgusting of policies by a lying media.

It could be the case that Israel has two aims. One is to weaken Hamas, and to that extent Hamas is the target as you say. And the other is to use Gaza for other purposes, and that means clearing the Palestinians out.

If that's right then the harm done to Palestinian people is not the unintended, undesirable consequence of the war against the evil of Hamas. It is the fully intended consequence of the ethnic cleansing of the region.

 

[KrisW]

@mandryka Perhaps, but Israel is dependent on the USA for its defence, and there are limits beyond which the US will not support them. The kind of planned genocide and forced displacement you suggest would very clearly cross that line, and in doing so risk the safety of Israel, and for no benefit: Unlike the West Bank, the Israeli hardliners don't want Gaza for anything; its current status as a de-facto gulag suits the current administration just fine.

Occam's Razor suggests that those in charge of this slaugher simply don't care about casualties. That could be just ambivalence, but I suspect those in charge have bought in to the fallacy that "Palestinian" and "Hamas" are basically the same thing. They're not alone in believing that, sadly..

 

[ff1d1l]

@mandryka Perhaps, but Israel is dependent on the USA for its defence, and there are limits beyond which the US will not support them. The kind of planned genocide and forced displacement you suggest would very clearly cross that line, and in doing so risk the safety of Israel, and for no benefit: Unlike the West Bank, the Israeli hardliners don't want Gaza for anything; its current status as a de-facto gulag suits the current administration just fine.

Occam's Razor suggests that those in charge of this slaugher simply don't care about casualties. That could be just ambivalence, but I suspect those in charge have bought in to the fallacy that "Palestinian" and "Hamas" are basically the same thing. They're not alone in believing that, sadly..

You've got this wrong. Its about land, and the elimination of the Palestinians on it. Hamas is gaslighting. Hostages back is gaslighting. Why would they need an apartheid enclave, with no one in it?

 

[droodzilla]

@mandryka Perhaps, but Israel is dependent on the USA for its defence, and there are limits beyond which the US will not support them. The kind of planned genocide and forced displacement you suggest would very clearly cross that line, and in doing so risk the safety of Israel, and for no benefit: Unlike the West Bank, the Israeli hardliners don't want Gaza for anything; its current status as a de-facto gulag suits the current administration just fine.

Occam's Razor suggests that those in charge of this slaugher simply don't care about casualties. That could be just ambivalence, but I suspect those in charge have bought in to the fallacy that "Palestinian" and "Hamas" are basically the same thing. They're not alone in believing that, sadly..

15000 dead children say you're wrong.

 

[wacko]

Are you sure that Hamas hasn't offered to release all the hostages? I thought I had read they have made offers to do that, maybe more than once.

How do you know that Hamas "wants as many civilian casualties as possible"?

Hamas has offered to release all remaining hostages for a long-term peace.
zionists want to pause to release the hostages and then start murdering again
zionists will never agree to any peace that entails a 2 state solution, or a 1 state solution that includes a significant number of Palestinians so it has to be genocide whether that takes 5 years or another 76.

 

[gavreid]

Israeli attacks on hospitals part of ‘campaign to eradicate Palestinian society’​

Dr Mads Gilbert, an emergency physician, spoke to Al Jazeera about the continued attacks on medical facilities by Israeli forces in Gaza following the ongoing sieges on al-Awda and Kamal Adwan hospitals.
He said there is no proof to back up the claims made by the Israeli military that the hospitals are used by Palestinian fighters.
“My experience from more than 20 years in Gaza is that the Palestinians don’t use civilian structures as what [Israel are] claiming, as some sort of hideouts for the armed resistance,” he said.
The Israeli attacks on hospitals, mosques, education facilities and bakeries are part of a “campaign to eradicate the Palestinian society and any sign of Palestinian structures in the civilian life”, he said.
“This is the politics of eradicating the Indigenous people to take their lands.”
He appealed to the governments of Spain, Ireland and Norway, who stated they would recognise an independent Palestinian state on Wednesday, to “step up the political pressure and practical sanctions against Israel” to halt the healthcare crisis in Gaza.

Ahead of ICJ ruling, Israel intensifies assault on Gaza’s Rafah

An increase in Israeli military attacks reported across Gaza in the last 24 hours with residential buildings targeted.

www.aljazeera.com

 

[gavreid]

ICJ to rule on Friday on measures over Israel’s Rafah offensive​

The International Court of Justice (ICJ) says it will rule on South Africa’s request to order a halt to Israel’s offensive on Rafah tomorrow afternoon.

 

[KrisW]

15000 dead children say you're wrong.

I said there was a line. I didn't say it was drawn where I would draw it. "Collateral damage" while rooting out an existential threat to Israel can be spun. A planned, systematic elimination of Gaza cannot. This isn't that. Militarily, this is a complete ****up with no evidence of any strategy at all .. it's about vengeance, not rescuing the hostages taken by Hamas. Like all recent IDF actions, it's a punishment exercise, politically driven, with no achievable military goal. Hamas's cynical strategy was to goad the IDF into just this kind of slaughter and then sit back and watch the carnage from their hotel suites in Qatar.

This is a conflict between two evil forces, neither of whom care about the Palestinian people. I will hear no apologies for Hamas. They are not some kind of natural reaction to Israeli occupation; they bought their way to power in Gaza using Iranian money, and they take their instructions from Tehran. The Iranian theocracy wants Israel eliminated, and they really don't care how many Muslims have to die in that process. Hamas undermined the moderate Palestinian political factions precisely to prevent peace with Israel.

 

[droodzilla]

I said there was a line. I didn't say it was drawn where I would draw it. "Collateral damage" while rooting out an existential threat to Israel can be spun. A planned, systematic elimination of Gaza cannot. This isn't that. Militarily, this is a complete ****up with no evidence of any strategy at all .. it's about vengeance, not rescuing the hostages taken by Hamas. Like all recent IDF actions, it's a punishment exercise, politically driven, with no achievable military goal. Hamas's cynical strategy was to goad the IDF into just this kind of slaughter and then sit back and watch the carnage from their hotel suites in Qatar.

This is a conflict between two evil forces, neither of whom care about the Palestinian people. I will hear no apologies for Hamas. They are not some kind of natural reaction to Israeli occupation; they bought their way to power in Gaza using Iranian money, and they take their instructions from Tehran. The Iranian theocracy wants Israel eliminated, and they really don't care how many Muslims have to die in that process. Hamas undermined the moderate Palestinian political factions precisely to prevent peace with Israel.

Tell that to The PA.

 

[KrisW]

@droodzilla Which "that"?

The part about Hamas was told to me by a friend who used to work for the PA back in the early 2000s. They saw it coming, but simply didn't have the resources to head off Hamas by supplying more state-run, politically neutral services.

 

[Yank]

You've got this wrong. Its about land, and the elimination of the Palestinians on it. Hamas is gaslighting. Hostages back is gaslighting. Why would they need an apartheid enclave, with no one in it?

The operation in Gaza is also a smokescreen for a massive increase in settler oppression and attacks of Palestinians in the West Bank, in preparation for another massive land grab if and when this present conflict finally ends.

 

[droodzilla]

@droodzilla Which "that"?

The part about Hamas was told to me by a friend who used to work for the PA back in the early 2000s. They saw it coming, but simply didn't have the resources to head off Hamas by supplying more state-run, politically neutral services.

Netanyahu is on record as saying that was precisely his aim.

Fund Hamas. Shaft the PA. Divide and rule.