War declared, Israel v Palestine...

[mandryka]

Yes, I’d appreciate more from you on @wacko ‘s question Finnegan - It’s been on my mind ever since you wrote this in response to something I said, I meant to take it up with you before. I expect you’ve got a lot of interesting ideas - I don’t mean this in any sort of aggressive or negative way, on the contrary!

Forgive me if I am incorrect, but I suspect you are trying to draw out anti-Semitism. Starmer needs no external power acting upon him to have adopted his solidly pro-Israel stance. He has aligned himself with the interests of the bosses, the bankers and the media barons, rather than the disenfranchised, the downtrodden and the oppressed. As a knight of the realm and leader of His Majesty‘s loyal opposition, he does not align himself solely with that class of people in the UK, but worldwide.

The Algerian-French philosopher Jacques Derrida once stated that if you wanted to understand the centre you had to look to the margins. The stability and prosperity of the west is predicated on the violent suppression and exploitation of large parts of the developing world. In order to retain control of the hugely important strategic Middle East, the U.S. and its allies- including Starmer- have to be fully signed up to the Israel project, even if that project is founded upon genocide.

 

[Tony L]

I appreciate the comparison with a situation of apartheid that we're all familiar with but it feels like there are limits to how far the comparison can reasonably be made. For one thing South Africa wasn't formed in response to the genocide of Afrikaners.

Whilst there has always been an ugly strain of white supremacy running through western Christianity I don’t think religion had anything like the same weighting in South Africa, or for that matter the slave trade that preceded it. As such I think the middle east is a different and unique example of just how irrational, hateful, violent and dysfunctional human societies can become. Whatever it is, and I certainly don’t have the right words to describe it, it is killing vast swathes of innocent people and is creating an environmental disaster.

 

[PaulMB]

Zionism distorts the argument to promote the myth that a call for the dismantling of the Israeli state is equivalent to the anti-Semitic objective of eradicating Jews from the region.

The key then, as mentioned upthread, is the working classes and progressive currents in the surrounding Arab countries- principally Egypt- again rise up, as they did in 2010, and depose their own despotic governments who, despite any rhetoric, are firmly wedded to the status quo.

So Israel could dismantle itself, and its 10,000,000 citizens, 8,000,000 Jews and 2,000,000 Arabs, could carry on with their lives without noticing much difference. Excellent idea!

At the same time, "progressive" and "working class" uprisings in Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq and Egypt will overthrow their dictators and establish pacifist democracies which will not lay a finger on the ex-Israeli Jews and welcome back to their bosom any of the 1,000,000 odd Jews who were exiled and robbed of all their posessions in the above states that wish to return to their country of origin. The perfect solution!

 

[palindrome]

@wacko & @mandryka

Another fishie posted this earlier in the thread:

He declares himself a Zionist. . . and then some 'self interest' . . .

John

 

[Finnegan]

Well, in response to both @wacko and @mandryka there are several important oil producing regions around the globe, but the Middle East remains one of the largest and most important. The US would have zero interest in the Middle East if its principal export was falafel.

Israel is by far the biggest recipient of U.S. aid in the world. It is off the scale compared to other countries that receive US aid. The billions that the US spends on Israel is, as far as the US is concerned, money well spent. The US has a willing client state with a domestic ruling class that justifies its existence by cynically manipulating the historical oppression of the Jewish people and employing various Biblical myths. In this sense, Israel exists as a vast, permanently moored U.S. aircraft carrier in a hugely strategic region. The Israeli IDF is the perfect vehicle of US foreign policy, meaning the US can afford to station much less troops and hardware in the region than would otherwise be the case; and has an additional utility as a means to discipline any Arab country in the region who steps out of line.

 

[wacko]

Still don't get it.
Israel has received over $100billion from the USA and will receive much more. Money that would have been better spent at home.
I don't agree that USA has a willing client state: it is the tail that wags that dog.
Israel is not going to fight any country for the USA. Russia ? China ? Forget it. OTOH the USA is pushed into illegal wars such as Iraq partly by the Zionist lobby.
On balance I don't see it as in the interests of the USA. But western politicians are frightened of the focus the Zionist lobby can project onto them. A combination of evangelical gobbledegook, money and media.

 

[palindrome]

Still don't get it.
Israel has received over $100billion from the USA. Money that would have been better spent at home.
I don't agree that USA has a willing client state: it is the tail that wags that dog.
Israel is not going to fight any country for the USA. Russia ? China ? Forget it. OTOH the USA is pushed into illegal wars such as Iraq partly by the Zionist lobby.
*On balance I don't see it as in the interests of the USA. But western politicians are frightened of the focus the Zionist lobby can project onto them. A combination of evangelical gobbledegook, money and media.

*This is not what Biden declared in the video I posted above. Take a look.

John

 

[Finnegan]

Whilst there has always been an ugly strain of white supremacy running through western Christianity I don’t think religion had anything like the same weighting in South Africa, or for that matter the slave trade that preceded it. As such I think the middle east is a different and unique example of just how irrational, hateful, violent and dysfunctional human societies can become. Whatever it is, and I certainly don’t have the right words to describe it, it is killing vast swathes of innocent people and is creating an environmental disaster.

Religion, in reality, has as much to do with the situation in the Middle East as it did in Ireland. Rather, religion is used to justify pre-existing atrocity and repression. Racism as a political current did not result from any supposed differences between races. Racism was not an idea that already existed in the western psyche that had slavery as its logical conclusion, but was developed to justify the already extant slave trade. Religion is being used in exactly the same way by the Zionist project of Israel.

I can fully sympathise with your pessimism, but if you truly believe that the situation in the Middle East results from an irrationality, hate, violence and dysfunction that characterises human behaviour, and is unique rather than arising from a distinct set of historical and political circumstances, then there really is no hope.

 

[russel]

Well, in response to both @wacko and @mandryka …..In this sense, Israel exists as a vast, permanently moored U.S. aircraft carrier in a hugely strategic region. The Israeli IDF is the perfect vehicle of US foreign policy..

Which is why Israel should be a bit more concerned about starting WW3 than it is, it won’t be one bomb it gets hit by it will be in the tens and they will be H-Bombs not A-Bombs and no, Iron dome won’t be any use.

 

[wacko]

*This is not what Biden declared in the video I posted above. Take a look.

John

Well Biden is a Zionist. It was pathetic watching him with Netanyahu.
The only politician in USA with the courage to confront Zionist aggression is AOC. Just that wonderful honest young lady.
How does Israel 'protect the interests of America' ? Seems to be to the contrary IMO.
Middle East countries are more and more turning towards China and Russia after decades of following everything the USA wanted.

 

[palindrome]

Well Biden is a Zionist. The only politician in USA with the courage to confront Zionist aggression is AOC. Just that wonderful honest young lady.
How does Israel 'protect the interests of America' ? Seems to be to the contrary IMO.
Middle East countries are more and more turning towards China and Russia after decades of following everything the USA wanted.

Which is why the USA continues to push hard, to maintain its power base. . .

John

 

[Finnegan]

Still don't get it.
Israel has received over $100billion from the USA and will receive much more. Money that would have been better spent at home.
I don't agree that USA has a willing client state: it is the tail that wags that dog.
Israel is not going to fight any country for the USA. Russia ? China ? Forget it. OTOH the USA is pushed into illegal wars such as Iraq partly by the Zionist lobby.
On balance I don't see it as in the interests of the USA. But western politicians are frightened of the focus the Zionist lobby can project onto them. A combination of evangelical gobbledegook, money and media.

You need then to ask yourself why the U.S. is willing to spend billions on Israel, and arm it to the teeth with the most destructive and sophisticated weaponry, if it is not in its own interests. The US is not a historically benign power.

The Jewish academic John Rose is particularly useful in unravelling the tangled relationship between the U.S. and Israel.

https://www.marxists.org/history/etol/document/mideast/hijack/1-oil.htm

 

[dave charlton]

A Hamas spokesman was quoted today as saying “We call on every honourable soldier and fighter in this nation to seize the opportunity and participate in this battle.”

This is something I've been thinking about for a while. Lots of us have decided to separate Evil Hamas (boo!) from Innocent Palestinian Civilians (yay!) but I wonder if that's going to become a bit of a simplistic reading.

I'm a devout pacifist. But if my home had been destroyed, many of my loved ones killed, and an army was launching an invasion of my homeland... would I remain passive? Or would I pick up a gun?

I'm not suggesting for a second that 'all Palestinians are Hamas'. Simply that I can see how some Palestinians may choose to resist. Especially if they feel they have nothing to lose.

Sorry, my post was ill thought out.

I should like to reply again if that's ok.

I should have said whether by witnessing the slaughter of Israeli's by the Brigades, the Israeli pacifists would (or should) abandon their cause.

 

[mandryka]

You need then to ask yourself why the U.S. is willing to spend billions on Israel, and arm it to the teeth with the most destructive and sophisticated weaponry, if it is not in its own interests. The US is not a historically benign power.

The Jewish academic John Rose is particularly useful in unravelling the tangled relationship between the U.S. and Israel.

https://www.marxists.org/history/etol/document/mideast/hijack/1-oil.htm

OK, I can‘t think straight.

Can someone (you?) talk me through what would happen if Biden started to to berate Israel for its genocide, and maybe even to make noises about protecting Gaza.

I can see that he may lose party political sponsorship. But what would the strategic geopolitical consequences be, and how would they work against American interests.

 

[Tony L]

Can someone (you?) talk me through what would happen if Biden started to to berate Israel for its genocide, and maybe even to make noises about protecting Gaza.

I don’t understand this either. To my mind the only logical move at this point is a ceasefire and possibly a UN peacekeeping force. Israel need to get the &*** out of Palestine, Hamas need to stop any further rocket attacks. It just needs to stop. Any other option is fascism or terrorism to my eyes, and there is barely a cigarette paper between them. Where we are right now is Bosnia. It is just a killing field.

 

[droodzilla]

Sorry, my post was ill thought out.

I should like to reply again if that's ok.

I should have said whether by witnessing the slaughter of Israeli's by the Brigades, the Israeli pacifists would (or should) abandon their cause.

I don't think so. The morality remains unchanged (unless one already subscribes to the "eye for an eye" philosophy).

But of course these people are human beings so who can say how witnessing the murder of their friends etc. will affect them psychologically.

I'd like to think I'd hold fast to my principles in the most terrible circumstances but I don't think any of us really know how we will react, until we're tested.

 

[paulfromcamden]

I can fully sympathise with your pessimism, but if you truly believe that the situation in the Middle East results from an irrationality, hate, violence and dysfunction that characterises human behaviour, and is unique rather than arising from a distinct set of historical and political circumstances, then there really is no hope.

I think pretty much any reading of history suggests that human behaviour (or at least the behaviour of those that decide to rule us) largely consists of irrationality, hate, violence and dysfunction. I am not hopeful.

 

[Finnegan]

OK, I can‘t think straight.

Can someone (you?) talk me through what would happen if Biden started to to berate Israel for its genocide, and maybe even to make noises about protecting Gaza.

I can see that he may lose party political sponsorship. But what would the strategic geopolitical consequences be, and how would they work against American interests.

Well that would never happen so there’s little point in any speculation. Imperialism is not simply a situation whereby bigger nations kick the smaller ones around. It is in fact a global economic system where spheres of influence are carved out and protected by armed force. Empires historically served the dual function of providing raw materials that were expropriated by the occupying power, and providing a market for commodities produced and exported by those same occupying powers.

Oil remains one of the most important global commodities. Israel possesses one of the most fearsomely equipped military forces in the world, far in excess of what a nation with Israel’s GDP would ordinarily be able to maintain without extraordinary levels of funding by the U.S. Operating Israel as a client state enables the US to police the entire Middle East, and its oil reserves, without the burden of maintaining the huge costs that a direct military occupation would incur.

Additionally, it avoids the need for American boots on the ground. The eventual military defeat of the U.S. by the Viet Cong in 1975 engendered what came to be known as ‘The Vietnam Syndrome.’ This was a massive humiliation for US imperialism and seriously knocked the confidence of the U.S. Although there were incursions into minor Caribbean territories in the interim, there was not to be another full scale invasion of a foreign country until Afghanistan, 26 years after their defeat in Vietnam. Maintaining a proxy force of hundreds of thousands of troops that does not result in body bags being shipped back to the States is of enormous advantage to the US.

 

[Nero]

At some point in this thread, I was going to suggest that things might be better if both sides were run by women. And then I saw an interview with Tzipi Hotovely.

And then I remembered Liz Truss.

As you were.

 

[paulfromcamden]

Sorry, my post was ill thought out.

I should like to reply again if that's ok.

I should have said whether by witnessing the slaughter of Israeli's by the Brigades, the Israeli pacifists would (or should) abandon their cause.

Thanks Dave. Yes, I agree - there's a good chance events will be pushing some people, both Israelis and Palestinians, into more extreme outlooks. If a family member had been tortured and killed by Hamas would I be calling for restraint or cheerleading the destruction? Hand on heart I honestly can't say. It would be a very hard thing to forgive.