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Vitus integrated amps surpass Naim 500 series?

D'you mean dedicated radial circuits, Ron? If so, I'd agree, though my experience has led to there being more benefit to Naim and possibly other s/s with toroidal trannies, but not necessarily to valved amplification (or sources?). From being a total convert, I'm now questioning that it's a panacea for all hifi. Obv. no negatives, however and some practical usefulness too.
I mean a dedicated 'spur', and if you are not in the UK...a dedicated ground rod.
Here in the US, I had the 'delta' ground rod done...three 8ft rods separated by 2m in a triangle (hence the 'delta') hooked together with 4ga wire.
And this is just the start. Using a 5-10kVA balanced mains transformer is also....transformative!
It is true that Naim electronics have less robust mains filtration than many other brands, and are more sensitive to high quality mains feeds. And.....POWER CORDS!!
 
I took a look at the web page for those power amps:

https://www.fmacoustics.com/products/resolution-series/fm-108-mkii/

What a load of "absolute bollox" (I'm standing in for Jez here ;)).

"Technical excellence is evident:
instead of a switched power supply - which would be small and very cheap but with the huge disadvantage of inherent current limiting - the FM 108-MKII employs a unique high-power linear ‘analogue’ supply. It is therefore completely self-contained and free from the audible disadvantages of digital power supplies"

So they use a transformer and some caps like >90% of amplifiers on the market?

"It outperforms other units costing up to six times the price (and which will "provide" up to fourteen times the bulk and weight...)."

As if price and performance are linked!
How can they know this. Absolute bollox!


"Minimum Power Output:
140 W peak into 8 Ohms
260 W peak into 4 Ohms
400 W peak into 2 Ohms

70 W RMS into 8 Ohms
130 W RMS into 4 Ohms
200 W RMS into 2 Ohms

Max. Output Voltage: 66 V pp."

So let's apply a simple formula to their numbers...
66V p-p is +/-33V
P=Vsquared/R
P= 33 X 33/8 = 136W peak

So how does it achieve 140W peak into 8R?

Bollox, bollox, bollox!

(Now I know what Jez feels like :D)

:) I was reading an old Hi fi Answers the other day and content re the DNM power amp was about the most bollox I've ever read! Jimmy Hughes natch... everything he said of a technical nature was laughably wrong for a start...

The cherry on the cake though was the "Comeback" section where Dennis Morecroft (DNM) first says "Reading through the review I think that all the technical details and the design criteria have been accurately laid out".
:eek:

For sheer lies and bullshit though this takes the biscuit "These may be the first amplifiers to use deliberately a form of construction that could loosely be described as Field Effect Construction, ie the basic design of the amplifier is dictated by the need to make it interact with its own internally produced electric fields in a more ideal way" :eek::rolleyes:

Mind you pretty much any post by "Rontoolsie" is a match for it!
 
The ironic thing about the FM acoustics specifications is they come from a company that states:

"This performance and engineering marvel amazes in every respect."

"Technical excellence is evident"

:D:D
 
The point is that their specifications contain at least one error.
If they cannot even get Watt's Law right....
 
The ironic thing about the FM acoustics specifications is they come from a company that states:

"This performance and engineering marvel amazes in every respect."

"Technical excellence is evident"

Most of that is true some of the best kit at any price + pros use them as well
FM ACOUSTICS products are used by an ever growing number of musicians, producers, studios, concert halls and other professionals. Some of them have asked us for privacy and not to use their name. Therefore, the list below is only a partial list of users whose association with FM ACOUSTICS equipment has been reported.
References were unsolicited and no compensation of any kind was obtained. The references are listed alphabetically.

Christina Aguilera
Alice
Herb Alpert
Joan Armatrading
AC/DC, Australia
Joan Baez
Chet Baker
John Barry
Carmelo Bene
Arturo Benedetti-Michelangeli
Loredana Bertè
Alpha Blondy
Lucciano Berio
Leonard Bernstein
David Byrne
John Catchings
Phil Carmen
Adriano Celentano
Chage & Asuka
Tracy Chapman
Ray Charles
Kenny Chesney
Cheryl Crow
Suzanne Ciani
Riccardo Cocciante
Phil Collins
Antonio Conde
Paolo Conte
Ry Cooder
Lucio Dalla
Miles Davis
Fabrizio De Andrè
Deep Puple
Depeche Mode
Teresa De Sio
Georges Delerue
Nicola Di Bari
Al Di Meola
Celine Dion
Double, Switzerland
Europe
Eugenio Finardi
Fleetwood Mac
Francesco Guccini
Go West
Herbert Grönemeyer
Herbie Hancock
Heaven 17
Heart
Don Henley
Hooty and the blowfish
Billy Idol
Eliahu Inbal
Anthony Jackson
Maurice Jarre
Keith Jarret
Billy Joel
Jesse Johnson
Julia Migenes Johnson
Grace Jones
Ricky Lee Jones
Gene Kelly
Jim Kerr, USA
B.B. King
Joachim Kuehn
Katia and Marielle Labecque
KD Lang
Michel Legrand
Level 42
YoYo Ma
John Mac Laughlin
Miriam Makeba
Branford Marsalis
Mia Martini
Nick Mason, Pink Floyd
Sir Yehudi Menuhin
Hibary Misora, Japan
Yves Montand
Alanis Morissette
Barjesten Morteza
Alannah Myles
Mizuki Nakajima
Randy Newman
Olivia Newton-John
Mike Nichols
Noa
No Doubt
Leo Nucci
Ozzy Osbourne
Mauro Pagani
Robert Palmer
I Pooh
PFM, Italy
Symbol (Prince)
Manitas de Plata
Jean Luc Ponty
Patty Pravo
Flavio Premoli
Pure
Queen
Rage against the machine
Ruggiero Raimondi
Bonnie Raitt
Eros Ramazotti
Chris Rea
The Red Hot Chili Peppers
Lou Reed
Mino Reitano
Rolling Stones
Rose Tattoo
Vasco Rossi
6 Gig
Sabrina Salerno
Ryuchi Sakamoto
Arturo Sandoval
Savage
Lalo Schifrin
Wayne Shorter
Simply Red
Bobby Solo
Jimmy Sommerville
The Sparks, USA
Rod Stewart
Gli Stadio
Stone Temple Pilots
David Sylvian
Siouxie and the Banshees
Sting
Bill Summers
Talking Heads
Tangerine Dream
Tears For Fears
Thompson Twins
Tomita
Top Rangers
U2
The Urge
Vangelis
Roberto Vecchioni
Antonello Venditti
Vinx,
Joe Walsh
John Warwick
Roger Waters
Muddy Waters
Orson Welles
Steve Winwood
Wu-Tang Clan
Paul Young
 
I think there are a couple of reasons Naim owners look to Vitus when thinking about moving on from Naim: (1) Richard at Lotus as noted by others pushes this switch a lot, and (2) they sound very different.
I had an active system with NDS / 552 / 300 and decided to make the move after being seduced by the Vitus sound. Before pulling the trigger, I thought "let's just listen to a few other things". Long story short - I don't own Vitus.

My advice if moving away from Naim is to start from scratch - listen to as many different systems as you can and decide what floats your boat. Naim is so far to one side of the audio spectrum that it is easy to fall in love with the first thing you hear that is different. After a while though, you realise there's a whole other hifi world out there - enjoy the journey!
 
I think there are a couple of reasons Naim owners look to Vitus when thinking about moving on from Naim: (1) Richard at Lotus as noted by others pushes this switch a lot, and (2) they sound very different.
I had an active system with NDS / 552 / 300 and decided to make the move after being seduced by the Vitus sound. Before pulling the trigger, I thought "let's just listen to a few other things". Long story short - I don't own Vitus.

My advice if moving away from Naim is to start from scratch - listen to as many different systems as you can and decide what floats your boat. Naim is so far to one side of the audio spectrum that it is easy to fall in love with the first thing you hear that is different. After a while though, you realise there's a whole other hifi world out there - enjoy the journey!
What did you end up with?
 
Lampizator Golden Gate DAC, Thomas Mayer 10Y pre-amp, Berning Quadrature Z power-amps, and Wilson Benesch Resolution speakers with Torus subs, although the Mayer / Berning has now been replaced by Audionet Stern / Heisenberg.
 
[QUOTE me 'D'you mean dedicated radials, Ron?']
I mean a dedicated 'spur',

You mean a dedicated radial, Ron, as I asked above. A spur can only come off an existing circuit and therefore can't be dedicated in the electrical sense. However, you may mean a spur which you dedicate to your hifi, which is entirely different. Guess that in the States there would only be radial circuitry in a house, so maybe it's a spur off a radial, which is not 'dedicated' electrically at all.
 
To answer the question in the thread title:

Some say . . . yes. Others . . . no.

Really a taste question, as there aren't any absolutes.

Exactly. And as I said earlier in this thread you have to trust your ears. Only you can be right. There are so many options out there. What suits one person will not necessarily suit the next person.
 
Although different gear may sound subtly or vastly different, one can choose to keep both (or more) if circumstances permit. In this case which is the amplifier, the Vitus or Naim can be used in the same system or separate systems. Sometimes a little bit of variety is good. I have 3 amps - Naim, Luxman and Sonneteer and occasionally switch the amps and speakers. The Luxman is used in the main system while the Sonneteer is in the bedroom system. The Naim is currently in cold storage and will be reinstated in appropriate time when I have the desire to listen or switch to a different presentation.
 
I will probably be Naimless in the next couple of weeks but have not gone down the Vitus route. Lots of choice out there.

Agreed, Woodface, but if you are looking at the class A option, as much of this thread has involved, Sugden, i.m.o., has to be considered as the cheaper AND home-grown choice. If you're simply chopping out Naim for other class AB amplification, I wish you luck in narrowing it down.

To my mind, and simplifying it considerably, there is valved, class A and AB amplification (yes, class D etc.as well but that's surely 'fringe'). Each has distinctly different modes of presentation and operation; I've done two but not (yet) class A solid state.

Notwithstanding different partnering systems etc., I'd like to see evidential experience of Sugden's top integrated against Vitus's penultimate integrated (SIA 025). Should one automatically assume that one is sufficiently superior/inferior to the other to put each at a merited cost/performance level? I know the thread title involves Naim v Vitus but I don't see why Sugden shouldn't be included, comparatively at least. Unless, that is, their top models simply don't cut the mustard within this context.
 
Agreed, Woodface, but if you are looking at the class A option, as much of this thread has involved, Sugden, i.m.o., has to be considered as the cheaper AND home-grown choice. If you're simply chopping out Naim for other class AB amplification, I wish you luck in narrowing it down.

To my mind, and simplifying it considerably, there is valved, class A and AB amplification (yes, class D etc.as well but that's surely 'fringe'). Each has distinctly different modes of presentation and operation; I've done two but not (yet) class A solid state.

Notwithstanding different partnering systems etc., I'd like to see evidential experience of Sugden's top integrated against Vitus's penultimate integrated (SIA 025). Should one automatically assume that one is sufficiently superior/inferior to the other to put each at a merited cost/performance level? I know the thread title involves Naim v Vitus but I don't see why Sugden shouldn't be included, comparatively at least. Unless, that is, their top models simply don't cut the mustard within this context.
I think class d will become more than niche if it hasn’t already.

I would look at Sugden first if I wanted that class a ‘sound’ personally but, to be honest, it just doesn’t interest me.

I have turned into a complete pragmatist, I just want something relatively simple that gives a realistic representation across my musical tastes.
 
I will probably be naimless in the next couple of weeks but have not gone down the Vitus route. Lots of choice out there.

I think one of the problems we have as audiophiles is the sheer amount of choice. Having more choices appears to be appealing initially but too many choices can make decisions more difficult. There was a psychologist in the 1950s called George Miller who said that a consumer can only process seven items at a time. After that he/she would have to create a coping strategy to make an informed decision. This can lead to consumer's being indecisive, unhappy, and even refrain from making the purchase at all. Then the chap behind the famous 1970 book 'Future Shock' (Alvin Toffler) famously said that freedom of more choices becomes the opposite - the "unfreedom". And in the world of Hi-Fi the matters are made worse as sampling the available choice is not at all easy. The ways we have to navigate through the deep forest of choice are:

1. Sampling the choice BUT demoing is not easy as there are fewer retailers around and home demoing even harder. And to genuinely compare products you ideally need different options in the same (ideally your own) room around the same time.
2. Reviews BUT these are largely a waste of time as almost every review is positive. You can train yourself to look for odd words which at least describe the character of the sound, but it ain't easy.
3. Forums. These can be good for helping narrow your choices BUT generally most people evangelically tell the world how great their own choice is.
4. Hifi Shows. BUT the rooms are often poor and if you find a sound you like you have no way of knowing which element in the source/amps/speakers is contributing most to the sound you are hearing or if it is system synergy.
5. Friends systems/Bake-offs. Good for hearing what others' real-world systems sound like BUT like (4) it is room-based and system-based.
6. Buying and selling in the second-hand market. This is a good way of testing different options at low cost as you can often sell on for close to what you bought at, especially if you buy off people rather than dealers. BUT it is a huge hassle to do it and the costs of sale and shipping and resolving problems often make it just too much as a means of sampling products to find the best.

In my movement away from Naim I home demoed six different brands of amps, thirteen different pairs speakers (most at home), 5 speaker cables, 4 mains cables and 6 interconnects. It was an exhausting 18 months of my life. Enjoyable at times, but not something I would want to do again.

So this is why brands that offer you a way to limit your choice can be so successful. The Naim route of providing a single brand path to upgrading your amp is a piece of marketing genius: it limits your choice to a handful of upgrade options. All your upgrade choice is available within one brand of amps and power supplies. And one of the reasons I think that the Vitus philosophy appeals to those who are used to Naim is that Vitus also has a very clear path: from the Reference series, to the Signature Class A series, through to the Masterpiece series. Yes I know most brands also have a range of amps at a range of prices, but not many have the clarity of upgrade paths that Naim and Vitus have: an upgrade path which reduces choice to a psychologically acceptable number of options.


But I think there is more than just an easily digestible upgrade path as to why Vitus is a natural upgrade from Naim. People often reference Richard from Lotus being the single person who has created this perception but I think what Richard did was simply to articulate (and he did it very well in his essay) what he observed was happening. And this is that there does seem to be a truth in the way someone used to the Naim sound signature would find a move to the Vitus amps appealing. Although they are very different in sound there is something of the 'Naim' sound in the Vitus sound, that lively leading-edge driven sound is there but then the Vitus amps take it and move it somewhere different, which many middle-aged ears with their maturing musical tastes find appealing.
 
I think one of the problems we have as audiophiles is the sheer amount of choice. Having more choices appears to be appealing initially but too many choices can make decisions more difficult. There was a psychologist in the 1950s called George Miller who said that a consumer can only process seven items at a time. After that he/she would have to create a coping strategy to make an informed decision. This can lead to consumer's being indecisive, unhappy, and even refrain from making the purchase at all. Then the chap behind the famous 1970 book 'Future Shock' (Alvin Toffler) famously said that freedom of more choices becomes the opposite - the "unfreedom". And in the world of Hi-Fi the matters are made worse as sampling the available choice is not at all easy. The ways we have to navigate through the deep forest of choice are:

1. Sampling the choice BUT demoing is not easy as there are fewer retailers around and home demoing even harder. And to genuinely compare products you ideally need different options in the same (ideally your own) room around the same time.
2. Reviews BUT these are largely a waste of time as almost every review is positive. You can train yourself to look for odd words which at least describe the character of the sound, but it ain't easy.
3. Forums. These can be good for helping narrow your choices BUT generally most people evangelically tell the world how great their own choice is.
4. Hifi Shows. BUT the rooms are often poor and if you find a sound you like you have no way of knowing which element in the source/amps/speakers is contributing most to the sound you are hearing or if it is system synergy.
5. Friends systems/Bake-offs. Good for hearing what others' real-world systems sound like BUT like (4) it is room-based and system-based.
6. Buying and selling in the second-hand market. This is a good way of testing different options at low cost as you can often sell on for close to what you bought at, especially if you buy off people rather than dealers. BUT it is a huge hassle to do it and the costs of sale and shipping and resolving problems often make it just too much as a means of sampling products to find the best.

In my movement away from Naim I home demoed six different brands of amps, thirteen different pairs speakers (most at home), 5 speaker cables, 4 mains cables and 6 interconnects. It was an exhausting 18 months of my life. Enjoyable at times, but not something I would want to do again.

So this is why brands that offer you a way to limit your choice can be so successful. The Naim route of providing a single brand path to upgrading your amp is a piece of marketing genius: it limits your choice to a handful of upgrade options. All your upgrade choice is available within one brand of amps and power supplies. And one of the reasons I think that the Vitus philosophy appeals to those who are used to Naim is that Vitus also has a very clear path: from the Reference series, to the Signature Class A series, through to the Masterpiece series. Yes I know most brands also have a range of amps at a range of prices, but not many have the clarity of upgrade paths that Naim and Vitus have: an upgrade path which reduces choice to a psychologically acceptable number of options.


But I think there is more than just an easily digestible upgrade path as to why Vitus is a natural upgrade from Naim. People often reference Richard from Lotus being the single person who has created this perception but I think what Richard did was simply to articulate (and he did it very well in his essay) what he observed was happening. And this is that there does seem to be a truth in the way someone used to the Naim sound signature would find a move to the Vitus amps appealing. Although they are very different in sound there is something of the 'Naim' sound in the Vitus sound, that lively leading-edge driven sound is there but then the Vitus amps take it and move it somewhere different, which many middle-aged ears with their maturing musical tastes find appealing.
Couldn’t agree more.

I went up the naim ladder, have a good local dealer who let me take products home. I felt every upgrade was worthwhile & I always received fair trade ins. There was less choice back then in a lot of ways, Rega did mainly budget gear for example.

I am just going in a slightly different direction & have no interest in high end bling
 
I heard an advanced Naim system played via SBL speakers at a Dealers in Tottenham Court Rd many years ago, I read so much in forums about this magic Naim does via SBL speakers, but when I heard them I was underwhelmed, it was not a bad sound, but for me it sounded just polite, I suppose I was expecting something exciting in musical terms. I used to own a Naim system (more entry level) which I remember was very good for band performances Eg The Pogues but not so good for classical music. Its all a subjective hobby...
 


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