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Verve Acoustic Sounds Series Reissues

Tony L said:
and I haven’t got round to the Getz Gilberto yet beyond having a quick listen to Girl From Ipanema, which sounded decent to me
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Tony, can I trouble you to let me know how it compares to the Speakers Corner version that I have in my LP pile ? Just to know if I need one more additional version since I will also duplicate ALS :)
 
igor_xxxx said:
Tony, can I trouble you to let me know how it compares to the Speakers Corner version that I have in my LP pile ? Just to know if I need one more additional version since I will also duplicate ALS :)
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Brighter, drier and crisper. Whether that is a good thing or not is entirely subjective, and some will obviously depend on your system to some degree too (mine is a bit on the big & warm side of neutral so can sound ‘over-cooked’ on some stuff).

To my ears all these audiophile labels have their own character traits and I’d file Speakers Corner with say DCC (and Steve Hoffman in general) in being a little on the warm and lush side of neutral. Classic Records and Alto Analogue are to my ears about in the centre ground, and these Acoustic Sounds possibly veer a little towards the crisp and forward. I do however have no original reference point for the Getz Gilberto as I’ve never had an early US copy pass through (though I do have a mono US original of Jazz Samba). I honestly don’t know, both are clearly superb labels/pressings and have their fans. Certainly the DCC Getz Gilberto is a big lush sound, stereotypically ‘valve audiophile’ and a bit much for my system (I bet the 149s upstairs would absolutely love it, but there is no record deck up there!). Basically there is nothing to knock with either, they are clearly at the top of the vinyl pressing game, but they do highlight just how significant mastering taste is as they do sound different.

FWIW so far I don’t feel the AS Getz Gilberto is quite the success of the ALS, but it is such different program material different rules likely apply. For my taste Coltrane needs to be right in your face, he really isn’t messing around and no way in hell is he creating an ambience or playing background or cocktail party music, so whilst the AS (as far as I can guess without having one to compare) moves ALS back closer to the RVG US original the GG may just be a bit too bright and crisp to suit it’s mood. I really haven’t decided on this one yet. By saying that the Louis & Oscar album, which I’ve never heard before in my life and have no reference point for, sounds wonderful!
 
I’ve read that RVG originals were EQd to sound good on the cheapest equipment by boosting the mid-bass and presence region. Whereas the Music Matters Blue Note reissues were done flat to preserve the real recorded sound to make the most of high quality modern systems. As such, I find it curious that people revere the Blue Note and Impulse! originals, and like the sound of them via their high-end full-range systems. I only have one original US Imulse! disc - the Live At Newport Coltrane/Shepp LP - and it certainly is vivid. I suppose that’s the EQ showing through?
 
Tony L said:
That is interesting. As ever I’m convinced it is down to what you compare to, and for me the reference has to be the original US 1st press RVG cut, which sadly I do not have. I do however have quite a few original US Impulse pressings, or very close relatives, e.g. my original Canadian Spartan Impulse of Ballads which has the RVG stamp, plus the aforementioned US original of Ascension. With both of these, and my 1967 Japanese King pressing of ALS Coltrane is way forward, extraordinarily present and ‘in the room’.

These really are incredibly forceful records, and I’d argue a lot of reissues since have almost attempted to rewrite the narrative and end up turning what to my mind is full-tilt spiritual protest music rammed full of emotion, anxiety and aggression, into something overall far more bland rounded-off and domesticated. Almost a ‘whitewash’ with as much political load in that term as you wish to read. The Acoustic Sounds ALS reverses that trend to me, and whilst it lacks the simply extraordinary ‘in the room’ presence of my sadly battered original Canadian copy of Ballads it does bring a lot of the bite back, bite that I am personally convinced should be there.

Anyway I liked the ALS so much I went back and bought the Louis & Oscar and Getz Gilberto. I have no reference point for the Louis & Oscar, so it just stands as a really nice pressing of a great album I’d never heard before, and I haven’t got round to the Getz Gilberto yet beyond having a quick listen to Girl From Ipanema, which sounded decent to me; brighter than I was expecting, Astrud hard left (not always a given), bass and sax not overblown as they so often can be with this track. Certainly a rather crisper and tighter view than I’m used to, though maybe a bit too ‘clean’, I need to play the rest. Anyway I think they are really good reissues and well worth the asking price. Considering they are only three times the price of some DOL or whatever pirated crap with zero quality control or access to source tapes and are presented in proper vintage style covers they are a bargain.

I’ve not got any Tone Poet Blue Notes, which I guess is a serious oversight that needs correcting.

PS Real vinyl geeks should have a good close look at the AS ALS front cover; the crop of the photo is altered from the original, it is zoomed tighter in on Coltrane. Not sure why they did this, but it has been the case for several other reissues too. Certainly different to the US 1st press (and my Japanese copy).
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Worth getting the CD version of Louis & Oscar as it has some really great additional tracks from the Ella & Louis Again sessions. I seem to recall that you are not that up on Armstrong so I would also urge you to buy Satch plays Fats & both Ella & Louis albums.

Armstrong was an incredibly fine player in the 1950’s, almost certainly playing better than in his 20’s. On the Satch plays Fats album you can compare earlier versions of some tracks as it comes with some great extras (on CD).
 
Woodface said:
I seem to recall that you are not that up on Armstrong so I would also urge you to buy Satch plays Fats & both Ella & Louis albums.
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I’ve got a bit, but it’s fairly random/inconsistent. A couple of early ‘78s (I’d have to go digging to find which, but they are great!), and on original vinyl; Plays King Oliver on Audio Fidelity, Ambassador Satch on Philips, Town Hall Concert Plus on RCA, Ella & Louis on HMV, plus there’s a compilation on Decca featuring some more 78-era stuff. On CD I’ve certainly got Porgy & Bess and the hot 5s/7s, there might be more. The second Ella & Louis is an obvious omission as is Plays Fats, I’ll definitely keep an eye out for those.

Woodface said:
Armstrong was an incredibly fine player in the 1950’s, almost certainly playing better than in his 20’s.
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I think he was extraordinary all the way to be honest, one has to remember just how much he shaped jazz and trumpet playing. One of those players who is instantly recognisable, within a note or two it’s either him or someone copying him, and that is what every muso seeks to achieve. An amazing talent and legacy.
 
Tony L said:
I’ve got a bit, but it’s fairly random/inconsistent. A couple of early ‘78s (I’d have to go digging to find which, but they are great!), and on original vinyl; Plays King Oliver on Audio Fidelity, Ambassador Satch on Philips, Town Hall Concert Plus on RCA, Ella & Louis on HMV, plus there’s a compilation on Decca featuring some more 78-era stuff. On CD I’ve certainly got Porgy & Bess and the hot 5s/7s, there might be more. The second Ella & Louis is an obvious omission as is Plays Fats, I’ll definitely keep an eye out for those.



I think he was extraordinary all the way to be honest, one has to remember just how much he shaped jazz and trumpet playing. One of those players who is instantly recognisable, within a note or two it’s either him or someone copying him, and that is what every muso seeks to achieve. An amazing talent and legacy.
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He’s currently about my favourite musician, I went to visit his house while in NYC & am in complete awe of him. He’s certainly the most important American artist of the 20th century & changed music for ever.

(What did I do) to be so black & blue on Satch plays Fats is probably the single greatest performance I’ve ever heard from a Jazz artist.

He did all this with a smile on his face & remained true to himself his whole life.
 
Nagraboy said:
I’ve read that RVG originals were EQd to sound good on the cheapest equipment by boosting the mid-bass and presence region. Whereas the Music Matters Blue Note reissues were done flat to preserve the real recorded sound to make the most of high quality modern systems.
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Judging by what I’ve heard I’d not believe everything that you read and I suggest trying a few more. They clearly knew what they were doing IMO. You can make just the same argument about The Beatles, but nothing touches original UK vinyl there. When mastering or making any creative decision about music it isn’t all about aesthetics, a lot is about intent, about getting the intended message across. A meaning that was clear at the time may get lost along the way, and the first pressing will have been signed off by people vastly closer to things than anyone around today. This is where for me a lot of reissues almost sound like (very beautiful) revisionism, especially with music as powerful and direct as Coltrane’s. To be blunt the intensity of his playing and his presence should scare you!

I’ve not got a vinyl copy of At Newport, but I’d not necessarily use that as a benchmark as gig recording was quite variable back then, especially at festivals etc. I haven’t played it for a while (I have a CD), but I remember it being great music, but maybe not the best recording. Coltrane was always hard to record live as he wouldn’t stay by the mic, apparently ‘Chasing The Trane’ on the wonderful Complete Village Vanguard Sessions is so named as they pretty much had to run after him with a mic! Try and get to hear a known great Impulse e.g. ALS, Crescent, Ballads, Black Saint, Blues And The Abstract Truth. The RVG cuts lasted far longer than the 1st pressings too, I’ve got some reissues on the next red-rim ABC Impulse label design too that have the stamp and they also sound great.
 
This is certainly what Harley and others want you to think; to imply that their versions are the 'best' and most faithful to the mastertapes. I think it's more honest and fine for them to say that their versions represent their take on the sound, and I can decide for myself whether I like it or not. Personally I often find that I prefer the originals even on high end modern equipment.

There was also the input of the producer/label/musicians in the final product. If you compare the sound of Blue Note, Impulse, Prestige, Savoy, etc., there were often subtle differences in presentation even though RvG was the engineer on all of them. Alfred Lion apparently had strong views how he wanted his products to sound.

Nagraboy said:
I’ve read that RVG originals were EQd to sound good on the cheapest equipment by boosting the mid-bass and presence region. Whereas the Music Matters Blue Note reissues were done flat to preserve the real recorded sound to make the most of high quality modern systems. As such, I find it curious that people revere the Blue Note and Impulse! originals, and like the sound of them via their high-end full-range systems. I only have one original US Imulse! disc - the Live At Newport Coltrane/Shepp LP - and it certainly is vivid. I suppose that’s the EQ showing through?
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hockman said:
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There was also the input of the producer/label/musicians in the final product. If you compare the sound of Blue Note, Impulse, Prestige, Savoy, etc., there were often subtle differences in presentation even though RvG was the engineer on all of them. Alfred Lion apparently had strong views how he wanted his products to sound.
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In the cases were I have original pressings and a high quality reissue I often find that it is the noise floor that determines what I prefer. My system doesn't exaggerate the record noise and I certaily don't prefer to listen to CD improve this aspect, but the quality of low level detail and ambiance retrieval from a well mastered and quiet pressing like the Tone Poets is persuasive.

The input of the producer / supervisor and the mastering engineer can certain make a difference to the final result. I can certainly even hear subtle differences in approach between the Tone Poets where Joe Harley supervises and Kevin Gray is mastering engineer and the BN80's were Kevin Gray alone (or perhaps with some unlisted supervisor /curator/ producer? Don Was?) masters.
 
Just got the first two of my Tone Poets; the Chick Corea and Sam Rivers (Andrew Hill arriving tomorrow for some reason). Just spinning the Corea now, these are seriously nice records! I’ll definitely be having some more. Can’t decide if I like the inners or not though, I’m kind of tempted to throw a Nagaoka inside.

PS There’s a pretty bad tape drop-out about half way through track two side one of the Corea, the left channel vanishes for a couple of seconds! I guess there is just no fixing that if the master has suffered.
 
Stunsworth said:
You’re well on the way down a very slippery slope!
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I’m definitely not going to try for the set, wonderful though that would be. I’ve got a fair few on other pressings or on CD anyway and I want to focus fairly tightly on the more free/avant or even later soul-jazz stuff if and when it appears. I’ve got loads of great Blue Note hard-bop, most of the classics, and whilst I’m sure I’m missing many great albums in that genre I want to prioritise the later-era seldom seen stuff as there is a lot of interest there. Have they announced a release schedule?
 
Tony L said:
I’m definitely not going to try for the set, wonderful though that would be. I’ve got a fair few on other pressings or on CD anyway and I want to focus fairly tightly on the more free/avant or even later soul-jazz stuff if and when it appears. I’ve got loads of great Blue Note hard-bop, most of the classics, and whilst I’m sure I’m missing many great albums in that genre I want to prioritise the later-era seldom seen stuff as there is a lot of interest there. Have they announced a release schedule?
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This is a bit out of date, but it goes to the end of the year. I’m sure there’s a 2021 schedule somewhere.

https://www.analogplanet.com/conten...oet”-audiophile-vinyl-reissue-series-schedule
 
Tony L said:
I’m definitely not going to try for the set, wonderful though that would be. I’ve got a fair few on other pressings or on CD anyway and I want to focus fairly tightly on the more free/avant or even later soul-jazz stuff if and when it appears. I’ve got loads of great Blue Note hard-bop, most of the classics, and whilst I’m sure I’m missing many great albums in that genre I want to prioritise the later-era seldom seen stuff as there is a lot of interest there. Have they announced a release schedule?
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Officially only up January 2021 at the moment, but if you plow through the later part of the Tone Poets thread you will find some those that Joe Harley as said will appear in 2021 onwards.
http://www.bluenote.com/tone-poet-vinyl-series-2020/
 
Looks like I’ll be spending again this month as I like the look of the Oct Duke Pearson and Bobby Hutchinson. I’m tempted to set myself an arbitrary >= 1965 and no duplicates rule (e.g. I’ve got Lou Donaldson’s Mr Shing a Ling on a non-collectable but surprisingly great sounding reissue). I’ve obviously already broken it with the Andrew Hill, but there will always be exceptions!

I need to investigate the BN80 as I haven’t even seen any. Looking at the list the ‘Blue Grooves’ titles are right in my target area. What is the quality like compared to the Tone Poets?
 
Stunsworth said:
I see Amazon are asking £45 for some of the next Tone Poet releases. They can do one at that price.
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Yes I see Oblique is at that and The Phantom is at £36, but I have seen that before on pre release on Amazon and they have always come down before release. It though best to order ASAP as they sometimes go up again after release. There is a lowest price guarantee. Some of the Independants such as Jazzhouse records are now quite competitive on price as well.
 
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