Ukraine V

[PsB]

I still can't get why NATO intervened in Yugoslavia on behalf of Kosovo Albanians in a minor conflict (compared to what's going on now) and didn't intervene in Ukraine (Ukraine, not Russia) in something that is incomparably bigger and more disastrous war.

This tragedy would have been over long time ago, many lives saved and moral reputation of Western military alliances reinforced after disasters in last 30+ years.

I can see that you still can't get that, which is strange IMV. While there are parallels between what Milosevic was trying to do and what Putin is trying to do, maybe it would be better for you to create a separate thread for Yugoslavia so we can discuss it there.
I don't understand your last sentence: could you please clarify which tragedy you're referring to (Yugoslavia or Ukraine)?

 

[ErikL]

Boycott Russia's Presidency of the UN Security Council:

https://www.atlasmovement.org/un_boycott_russia_learn_more

Thank you.

 

[Kirk]

Russia adds Hungary to its list of "unfriendly" countries.

 

[TheDecameron]

Russia adds Hungary to its list of "unfriendly" countries.

I think the rest of Europe and the US should do the same

 

[George J]

The trouble with democracy in a foreign country is that the people may elect leaders who we don't much like for their policies. I wonder what foreigners must think of our government over the last ten years or so.

Hungary has what I think is a very strange leader. Not at all nice in my book, but what can the French have made of Truss for example? Or indeed any member of the EU of any of our recent leaders?

I do wonder how broad a church NATO can be. I think that Turkey has kicked up about Finland and Sweden being allowed accession to the alliance is disreputable, and Hungary was also very slow.

The world is a hard place to understand.

Best wishes from George

 

[Kirk]

The Turkish parliament votes unanimously in favor of Finland’s accession to NATO. No escalatory reaction from Putin, which is odd.

 

[Euan]

The Turkish parliament votes unanimously in favor of Finland’s accession to NATO. No escalatory reaction from Putin, which is odd.

Which Putin though? There are lots of them and surely one of them will throw a hissy.

 

[DimitryZ]

Which Putin though? There are lots of them and surely one of them will throw a hissy.

He can't afford to, unless he wants to highlight a massive foreign policy blunder that is the direct result of his war on Ukraine.

In the recent past, he said the Finland and Sweden joining NATO doesn't represent any threat to Russia and they are just fine with it.

He didn't explain why Finland and Sweden in NATO is fine, but Ukraine is not.

 

[anubisgrau]

I can see that you still can't get that, which is strange IMV. While there are parallels between what Milosevic was trying to do and what Putin is trying to do, maybe it would be better for you to create a separate thread for Yugoslavia so we can discuss it there.
I don't understand your last sentence: could you please clarify which tragedy you're referring to (Yugoslavia or Ukraine)?

Ukraine of course.

I mentioned the intervention in Yugoslavia only because the war in Ukraine is much more obvious conflict to intervene. Actually, when NATO started bombing campaign in Yugoslavia, a number of casualties was negligible and far, very far from even a daily death count in Ukraine - at any given day from 2014 to now.

But it's your matters, not mine.

 

[Chefren]

He didn't explain why Finland and Sweden in NATO is fine, but Ukraine is not.

It's not really fine I think, but importantly, Finland was never part of the USSR and Crimea is in Ukraine. There is nothing of equal strategic importance for Russia in Finland, they already have all the forests and swamps they need. But they have a definite shortage of warm water ports and with Ukraine integrating with the west, the lease of Sevastopol might be withdrawn. Also it's another step towards restoring the USSR.

So best puppet Ukraine in a brilliant three-day military special operation and leave the west scratching their head, wondering what happened, making some obligatory noises about sanctions and eventually shrugging and moving on.

 

[anubisgrau]

Don't underestimate our friend Dimitry, he's an educated man. He knows that very well.

 

[DimitryZ]

It's not really fine I think, but importantly, Finland was never part of the USSR and Crimea is in Ukraine. There is nothing of equal strategic importance for Russia in Finland, they already have all the forests and swamps they need. But they have a definite shortage of warm water ports and with Ukraine integrating with the west, the lease of Sevastopol might be withdrawn. Also it's another step towards restoring the USSR.

So best puppet Ukraine in a brilliant three-day military special operation and leave the west scratching their head, wondering what happened, making some obligatory noises about sanctions and eventually shrugging and moving on.

It's worth pointing out that USSR fought a savage and very bloody war with Finland right before WW2, taking about a quarter of Finnish territory after huge losses.

I guess it was strategically important then, but not now.

 

[Chefren]

It's worth pointing out that USSR fought a savage and very bloody war with Finland right before WW2, taking about a quarter of Finnish territory after huge losses.

I guess it was strategically important then, but not now.

Indeed it was, Russia was afraid that Germany would attack the USSR through Finland. Ironically the Winter War caused this to happen in 1941. The Finnish-Soviet relationship was also not exactly great after the 1918-1923 period, although it had been slowly improving, the trust was not there.

Today, this is not so much of a concern, Germany isn't really talking so much about conquests in the east these days.

Also WW2 had already started, this was part of the same deal between Germany and the USSR that partitioned Poland for the Nth time and allowed the USSR to occupy the Baltics and grab Bessarabia (today Moldova) from Romania.
Finland didn't quite lose a quarter of the territory, there is a map here. But almost 15% of the Finnish population (500.000) was evacuated and had to be resettled elsewhere, something which would shift demographics especially in many previously majority Swedish speaking regions.

But again, like with Ukraine, imperial ambitions were present too; Finland had been part of the Russian empire and the USSR had supported the reds in the Finnish civil war in 1918 and lost. A quick 3-week special military operation was put together to march into Helsinki with the oppressed Finnish workers throwing flowers at the marching Red Army. They even brought the marching bands with them as part of the initial offensive. Ukranian mobilized troops were shipped up to Finland with no proper winter equipment and apparently were not sure where they were or why they were supposed to fight a war.

There are several similarities between the current war in Ukraine and the Winter War, but also many differences, most obviously that Finland ran out of ammunition and lost after 105 days. It was not the victory the USSR had hoped for, but it was a victory for them nevertheless.

 

[DimitryZ]

Indeed it was, Russia was afraid that Germany would attack the USSR through Finland. Ironically the Winter War caused this to happen in 1941. The Finnish-Soviet relationship was also not exactly great after the 1918-1923 period, although it had been slowly improving, the trust was not there.

Today, this is not so much of a concern, Germany isn't really talking so much about conquests in the east these days.

Also WW2 had already started, this was part of the same deal between Germany and the USSR that partitioned Poland for the Nth time and allowed the USSR to occupy the Baltics and grab Bessarabia (today Moldova) from Romania.
Finland didn't quite lose a quarter of the terrory, there is a map here. But almost 15% of the Finnish population (500.000) was evacuated and had to be resettled elsewhere, something which would shift demographics especially in many previously majority Swedish speaking regions.

But again, like with Ukraine, imperial ambitions were present too; Finland had been part of the Russian empire and the USSR had supported the reds in the Finnish civil war in 1918 and lost. A quick 3-week special military operation was put together to march into Helsinki with the oppressed Finnish workers throwing flowers at the marching Red Army. They even brought the marching bands with them as part of the initial offensive. Ukranian mobilized troops were shipped up to Finland with no proper winter equipment and aparently were not sure where they were or why they were supposed to fight a war.

There are several similarities between the current war in Ukraine and the Winter War, but also many differences, most obviously that Finland ran out of ammunition and lost after 105 days. It was not the victory the USSR had hoped for, but it was a victory for them nevertheless.

At any rate, missile flight time from Finland to St.Petersburg is minutes, which is what USSR and Russia were always concerned about.

So getting a very long border with NATO Finland as a direct result of a war to "roll back NATO" seems to me a gigantic failure.

 

[wacko]

At any rate, missile flight time from Finland to St.Petersburg is minutes, which is what USSR and Russia were always concerned about.

So getting a very long border with NATO Finland as a direct result of a war to "roll back NATO" seems to me a gigantic failure.

Was never about NATO was it. Just Putin's Empire.

 

[DimitryZ]

Was never about NATO was it. Just Putin's Empire.

We may learn more in the future what motivated him. I hear two leading theories: revanchist attempt to partially reverse the fall of the USSR (for which Putin blames the West) and/or mental illness/delusions of grandeur brought about by Covid isolation and long hours in Kremlin map rooms (pouring over antique maps of Russian empire).

Banality of Evil tells us that it's rather uninteresting to learn the actual reasons that made him commit to a giant war on his border and slaughter hundreds of thousands of his own subjects (even if he cares nothing for Ukrainian lives at all), other than for psychologists and Putin historians.

 

[Barrymagrec]

At any rate, missile flight time from Finland to St.Petersburg is minutes, which is what USSR and Russia were always concerned about.

Is that why they keep changing the name? To make it more of a moving target?

 

[ks.234]

We may learn more in the future what motivated him. I hear two leading theories: revanchist attempt to partially reverse the fall of the USSR (for which Putin blames the West) and/or mental illness/delusions of grandeur brought about by Covid isolation and long hours in Kremlin map rooms (pouring over antique maps of Russian empire).

Banality of Evil tells us that it's rather uninteresting to learn the actual reasons that made him commit to a giant war on his border and slaughter hundreds of thousands of his own subjects (even if he cares nothing for Ukrainian lives at all), other than for psychologists and Putin historians.

No, not really. Or at least not unless you believe that Putin, like Eichmann, is an ordinary and unremarkable man who has had evil thrust upon him.

Hannah Artendt said of Eichmann:

I was struck by the manifest shallowness in the doer [ie Eichmann] which made it impossible to trace the uncontestable evil of his deeds to any deeper level of roots or motives. The deeds were monstrous, but the doer – at least the very effective one now on trial – was quite ordinary, commonplace, and neither demonic nor monstrous.

[Eichmann] was a man who drifted into the Nazi Party, in search of purpose and direction, not out of deep ideological belief.​

Such a description does not, ISTM, a man who has fought himself to the top of Russian politics amid much savage competition

 

[DonQuixote99]

Yes, seems to me Eichmann's job--bureaucrat in charge of creating and managing a far-flung logistics and processing system--doubtless looked tedious and off-putting to more ambitious men. But he took it and kept at it and was successful at it. Doubt he ever had to stab anyone on his way up. He seems to have seen himself as a drudge doing a shit job for his country.

 

[DimitryZ]

Is that why they keep changing the name? To make it more of a moving target?

Maybe? There are also fundamental legal differences between whatever it is RF calls its' attack and declaration of war in both international and Russian law.

On perhaps a related topic, Lukashenko made a speech yesterday or the day before where he implored everyone to stop fighting, because "soldiers on both sides don't understand what they are fighting and dying for." Since Lukashenko speaks for Putin, this declaration seems important.