Ukraine III
- Thread starter TheDecameron
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paulfromcamden
Baffled
If the internet had been around in 1940 I'd hope it might be possible to have a civil discussion with a German hi-fi nerd regardless of their view of the war.
droodzilla
pfm Member
It's up to you (how much crap are you prepared to take) but I appreciate the fact that you are here, even though I fundamentally diagree with Putin's invasion of Ukraine.
Frankly, some of the posts attacking you (and making sweeping, dehumanising generalisations about Russians) are digusting.
droodzilla
pfm Member
Well said. I expect many members would have similar beliefs, had they been raised in Russia. The idea that people magically change their minds when exposed to evidence that goes against their entrenched views is a fantasy. It's not how most people work - if anything they often dig, epecially if they are also accused of being a troll, a bot, or told to **** off.
droodzilla
pfm Member
Again, I agree. With the qualification that I would not expect nor wish to have such a discussion with a committed, ideological Nazi. I don't know how many German citizens fell into that category at the time (probably a much debated topic) but I'd like to think that millions just wanted to get on with their lives, like any normal human being.
Minio
Kind of Sort of Not really...
What I'm getting from some posters here is that Russia is also a casualty of this war.
Not only the young conscipts that will have to endure life changing injuries and losses for their families but the country's status in the world has taken an unnecessary hit which will in turn hurt its people.
And some will take the Putin position, wrongly, and go on the defensive from that perspective.
Not only the young conscipts that will have to endure life changing injuries and losses for their families but the country's status in the world has taken an unnecessary hit which will in turn hurt its people.
And some will take the Putin position, wrongly, and go on the defensive from that perspective.
-alan-
pfm Member
I have 'interesting' (if not entirely edifying) conversations with an individual in my extended family circle who believes that most of the ailments in the modern world are down to the US (and the UK), that we only ever get a carefully curated set of Western ideologies imposed upon us by our media - and seriously believes Putin isn't anywhere as bad as we all think.
His logic and reasoning is full of holes - and quite frankly bullish*t - but I am always curious to try to understand what drives his thinking.
That's the same reason why I think it's worth hearing what somebody like poster [email protected] has to say. Even if it's bull - I'd like to know what his reasoning is, and why he has reached those conclusions. If we don't take the time to understand the mindset and reasoning of 'the opposition', then it's hard to deal with their arguments.
(And for the absolute removal of doubt btw - nothing I have heard from anywhere up to this point has done anything to convince me that Putin's actions, if not his whole mindset, are anything less than absolutely fkn disgraceful.)
tones
Tones deaf
A very good article in last week's Economist on the politics of paranoia:
https://www.economist.com/leaders/2022/04/09/fearmongering-works-fans-of-the-truth-should-fear-it
I live in third country, next to Russia. And I do not need to live in West or Putin, or anybody else information bubble to see growing Russian chauvinism in last decade or so, those people are here among us. Straight correlation with what Putin does in his own country. It is their choice, their beliefs, their nature, it has nothing to do with available information, they can have any they want to have, still with Putin. Writing Z letters on walls, breaking glass on Ukraine cars, stealing their number plates, threatening people who support refugees. Here, in third country!
Funny people, they come to neighbours uninvited, sitting there for days, want to set their rules, and do not want to go back home, even when asked nicely. And then weeping all around why are they not so loved, to say it politely.
Do they really missing noticing that close countries less and less want anything common with Russia? Ah, yes, the all powerful western influence makes them to do that. Yes, of course.
So much hate for West, US is too far away, so Putin dumps it on Ukraine. Cannot get to fighting troops, Putin dumps it on civilians. That is your noble Putin and his noble reasons.
Funny people, they come to neighbours uninvited, sitting there for days, want to set their rules, and do not want to go back home, even when asked nicely. And then weeping all around why are they not so loved, to say it politely.
Do they really missing noticing that close countries less and less want anything common with Russia? Ah, yes, the all powerful western influence makes them to do that. Yes, of course.
So much hate for West, US is too far away, so Putin dumps it on Ukraine. Cannot get to fighting troops, Putin dumps it on civilians. That is your noble Putin and his noble reasons.
kensalriser
pfm Member
Where are all these sweeping, dehumanising generalisations?
I don't agree that I need to research a source before posting.
That doesn't change my opinion that there were interesting points in the article I linked to.
Interesting that you point out the Scripals incident - its been a while since I've seen anything written about that. Think they were both hospitalised but recovered iirc - where did they go to afterwards. I'd think the daughter would return to her family/ partner in Russia, even if the father would likely go into hiding.
I remember at the time thinking there was some UK/Western propaganda in the media portrayal of it and the aftermath.
It certainly didn't feel as clear cut as the poor guy who was poisoned with (I think) Polonium in a London hotel.
DimitryZ
pfm Member
Please stop the fake violins.
Your government canceled Russia all by itself through perpetrating unprovoked aggressive war, annexation of other countries territories, mass murder, and forced deportation. And as an ardent supporter, you have convinced me that it's a correct action.
And like most Putinists, your memory is rediculously short. A week before marching into Ukraine, your leaders were literally screaming that they had no plans to invade and it was all "histerical western propaganda." A few days later they said both that "Russia had no choice - America made us do it" (Zaharova) and "We didn't really invade Ukraine" (Lavrov). And here you are, singing along and off key.
Hook
Blackbeard's former bo'sun.
Good to know. Makes ignoring your posts much easier. Thank you.
DimitryZ
pfm Member
Excuse me, but have you been in a coma?
Scripals are in hiding. The two Russian GRU men who poisoned them were on many video clips from Sulisberry streets before flying back. They then went on RT and claimed they were nutritionists and went to Sulisberry to enjoy it's cathedral.
They then threw bottle of Novichok disguised as perfume into or near a donation box. It eventually found its way to a woman who used it on her wrist and died. Others around the incident were injured and hospitalized.
I don't think it's smart to post junk without checking it.
Joe P
Memory Alpha incarnate | mod; Shatner number = 2
Dmitre (at top of page, not the Dimitry above me),
You're asking people here to consider the possibility they have been fed propaganda and lies by their respective governments and media. Are you willing to do the same? What's more likely — that various Western governments and media are somehow conspiring to tell the same story, or that the Kremlin and its tightly controlled media are?
Ukrainians are not welcoming Russians on their soil and this war (or whatever you want to call launching missiles and dropping bombs on people is called) is causing utterly pointless death, suffering and destruction in Ukraine along with many deaths and casualties among Russian forces. How can anyone support this and the person who instigated it?
Joe
You're asking people here to consider the possibility they have been fed propaganda and lies by their respective governments and media. Are you willing to do the same? What's more likely — that various Western governments and media are somehow conspiring to tell the same story, or that the Kremlin and its tightly controlled media are?
Ukrainians are not welcoming Russians on their soil and this war (or whatever you want to call launching missiles and dropping bombs on people is called) is causing utterly pointless death, suffering and destruction in Ukraine along with many deaths and casualties among Russian forces. How can anyone support this and the person who instigated it?
Joe
anubisgrau
pfm Member
peeing in the fountains and getting hookers maybe?
Hook
Blackbeard's former bo'sun.
I was wondering the same.
Compared to Colonel Kalashnikov, Dimtre seems much less crazy aggressive, but no less completely in the grip of Putin’s propaganda. Any criticism he receives here as a result is 100% justified in my opinion.
You're welcome
No.
I'm aware of those details thanks.
Appears as though I'm not as smart as you think I should be. I'd apologise if I thought it was merited.
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