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Ukraine II

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Seeker_UK said:
https://rusi.org/explore-our-resear...ary/mysterious-case-missing-russian-air-force

"Another potential explanation is that the VKS are not confident in their capacity to safely deconflict large-scale sorties with the activity of Russian ground-based SAMs operated by the Ground Forces. Friendly-fire incidents by ground-based SAM units have been a problem for Western and Russian air forces alike in multiple conflicts since 1990. Running joint engagement zones in which combat aircraft and SAM systems can engage enemy forces simultaneously in a complex environment without friendly-fire incidents is hard; it requires close inter-service cooperation, excellent communications and regular training to master. So far, Russian forces have shown extremely poor coordination across the board, from basic logistics tasks, to coordination of airborne assaults with ground forces activity and arranging air defence cover for columns on the move."

Caveat - the RUSI paper was written 5 days after the invasion started.
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Because they’re saving them for the next, bigger war?
 
As for the civilian slaughter in Doneck you all point as Putin propaganda, there are some clear facts. The remains of the missile shows it's Tochka, rather unsophisticated ballistic missile, not a part of Russian military anymore. It's replaced with Iskander and cruise missiles while it's still being used by the Ukrainian army, as seen in the previous weeks (a plenty of Western evidence on that).

The missile was obviously aimed at some other target (possibly a government building at Doneck) but it was brought down by AAC fire from the Russians and fell on these poor people. So technically it may not have been aimed to cause a slaughter but it targeted urban zone.
 
anubisgrau said:
As for the civilian slaughter in Doneck you all point as Putin propaganda, there are some clear facts. The remains of the missile shows it's Tochka, rather unsophisticated ballistic missile, not a part of Russian military anymore. It's replaced with Iskander and cruise missiles while it's still being used by the Ukrainian army, as seen in the previous weeks (a plenty of Western evidence on that).

The missile was obviously aimed at some other target (possibly a government building at Doneck) but it was brought down by AAC fire from the Russians and fell on these poor people. So technically it may not have been aimed to cause a slaughter but it targeted urban zone.
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How do you think that the Ukraine forces managed to sneak a TEL into a Russian-occupied area (to get within range) and then sneak out again without being destroyed?
 
[email protected] said:
Sorry, your truly media doesn't cover anything goes against your convenient picture of the world.
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If Ukraine is ‘Nazi’ is Putin a ‘Stalinist’? and what is Ramzan Kadyrov of Chechnya who announced his presence in Ukraine- a Liberal Democrat?
The Nazi label on Ukraine might work with the public in Russia where external news sources are now shut off along with social media but its simply name calling. Repeating it doesn’t make it any more believable, like special military operation or denazification which are in reality invasion of another sovereign country and decapitation of its government so that it can be replaced by a puppet regime.
 
Rizo said:
Read in yesterdays Irish Independent a vignette by A Campbell about Blair meeting Putin in 2001. Blair said Putin showed him his personal quarters, he came back to Campbell and said '“this is not good, this is like some place out of the Roman empire’! One wonders whether Putin is more of a Tsar than a Stalinist. Rest of the interview is worth reading for Putin's angle on the US's own militarism - “Putin just completely ripped into Blair in a way I can’t even describe. It was after the fall of Saddam and we were certainly still looking for the weapons of mass destruction (lol!) He was saying ‘America doesn’t obey any rules itself’ and ‘America only thinks about itself’... and ‘you just tag along with them.’”
Alastair Campbell: My dinners with Putin - Independent.ie
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The timeline is a bit off as the second Gulf War didn't start until 2003.
 
Seeker_UK said:
How do you think that the Ukraine forces managed to sneak a TEL into a Russian-occupied area (to get within range) and then sneak out again without being destroyed?
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Well you should know better than me about the Russian Army efficiency in this war. I can very easily imagine any military to sneak out after firing it.

Depending on version, this missile has a range of 70 to 120 kilometers, why do you think there is no AZOV or Ukr army that close to Doneck?
 
TheDecameron said:
If Ukraine is ‘Nazi’ is Putin a ‘Stalinist’?
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I was under the impression the small factions of fascists in the disputed territories of Ukraine were pro-Putin? Makes sense given Putin ticks pretty much all the fascist checkboxes (violently racist & homophobic, an active white/religious supremacist, dictator etc etc). A lot of alignment there, as there is with Trump and his “Proud Boys”, Farage, EDL and the rest of that shit. There is a truly disturbing amount of fascism in plain view these days.
 
anubisgrau said:
Well you should know better than me about the Russian Army efficiency in this war. I can very easily imagine any military to sneak out after firing it.

Depending on version, this missile has a range of 70 to 120 kilometers, why do you think there is no AZOV or Ukr army that close to Doneck?
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Well, it would have to travel on a road for most of its journey, look at how Russian wheeled vehicles are getting bogged down cross-country. Russia has air cover (including drones) for surveillance, so I would find it unlikely (but I accept not impossible) that it wouldn't have been observed and interdicted. I'd need to know more, but a few Russian telegram sources is not enough to convince me (a) it happened and (b) it wasn't a 'false flag' activity or (c) Russian weapons falling short.

Interested that you mention Azov. Do they have Tochkas or is it just a ham-fisted attempt at linking Ukraine to Nazism again?
 
droodzilla said:
KenniGT comes across as far more extreme in his views, in my opinion.
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Really?

Do I call someone Nazi or post fake information?

Or you refer to me calling royal family having German roots?

Or for call for hard punishment of those who kill kids and pregnant woman?
 
Tony L said:
I was under the impression the small factions of fascists in the disputed territories of Ukraine were pro-Putin?
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The neo-nazi Azov battalion were co-opted into the Ukrainian National Guard.

As I posted upthread Facebook took the surprising decision to lift their ban on discussion of Azov so long as posts limited themselves to Azov defending Ukraine and didn't mention any unpleasant nazi stuff.
 
FB gone bonkers, my wife posted a well known pic of Klitchko with AZOV without any comment, the pic was taken for a violation of community rules.
 
paulfromcamden said:
The neo-nazi Azov battalion were co-opted into the Ukrainian National Guard.

As I posted upthread Facebook took the surprising decision to lift their ban on discussion of Azov so long as posts limited themselves to Azov defending Ukraine and didn't mention any unpleasant nazi stuff.
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Azov is a sea next to Mariupol.

Regarding Nazi.
German army liberated Ukraine from Soviet suffering and occupation. Nazi means anti-soviet there.

Poland was liberated by Bonaparte from Russian occupation and his name is now in national anthem.

One needs to understand history, to understand what mean to them referring to some sort of nazi. It is anti-soviet in Ukraine. I have a feeling it was blown out of proportion by russian propaganda. In Ukraine there is struggle between pro and anti soviet, and only who help them fighting soviets were nazi germans. Keep refering to wole Ukraine as Nazi, is just propagating Russian propaganda. President is Jewish and he lost family members during WW2.

In Ukraine there is 40mln people, and couple people on one photo created constant conversation about this. You have Nazi in Russian Army -> Wagner Group working for Putin, couple thousands people, they are open nazi group, even by name. Nazi, far right idiots are in every country, but that is marginal. Photos with nazi flags are in US, Canada, Germany, Poland... you name it. Just not spread by Russian propaganda that much. In Azov battalion, as far as I am aware also foreign fighters are fighting. Are they Nazi as well?

What is in Ukraine, is far right (as in rest of europe europe) and as we know, far right are not the brightest birds on the planet.
 
Tony L said:
I was under the impression the small factions of fascists in the disputed territories of Ukraine were pro-Putin? Makes sense given Putin ticks pretty much all the fascist checkboxes (violently racist & homophobic, an active white/religious supremacist, dictator etc etc). A lot of alignment there, as there is with Trump and his “Proud Boys”, Farage, EDL and the rest of that shit. There is a truly disturbing amount of fascism in plain view these days.
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There was Right-Wing involvment on both sides. https://www.ifri.org/sites/default/files/atoms/files/rnv95_uk_likhachev_far-right_radicals_final.pdf

My interpretation, right-wing politics is common in that region so not unusual to see them on either side of the separatist divide and has been overplayed in understanding why the conflict started and who was behind it.
 
TheDecameron said:
If Ukraine is ‘Nazi’ is Putin a ‘Stalinist’? and what is Ramzan Kadyrov of Chechnya who announced his presence in Ukraine- a Liberal Democrat?
The Nazi label on Ukraine might work with the public in Russia where external news sources are now shut off along with social media but its simply name calling. Repeating it doesn’t make it any more believable, like special military operation or denazification which are in reality invasion of another sovereign country and decapitation of its government so that it can be replaced by a puppet regime.
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To be fair I don’t think @[email protected] is saying that Ukraine is Nazi. But (despite some posters assertion to the contrary) it would be surprising if there were no Nazi elements in Ukraine as there are everywhere and it would be even more surprising if they didn’t do what Nazi’s do as they do do everywhere else.
 
It’s astonishing how only two posters here have managed to maintain an ongoing narrative about Ukrainian Nazis.
Let’s be unequivocal: only one country’s actions in this conflict are comparable to Nazi Germany’s actions, and it’s not Ukraine. And there’s no nuance or complexity about it.
 
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