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Ukraine II

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Rosewind said:
What did you want to prove by posting that photo Anubisgrau?
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What photo? Pls remind me.

Ah you mean Klitchko with AZOV? It was a pre-war photo. The pic was posted in discussion with a German who lived in Ukraine who was appalled with a nazi revival (Bandera, AZOV) at that time.

I think any decent person, especially role-type politicians would stay clear off AZOV types, but maybe I'm wrong.
 
At the moment whole Russian army are behaving as nazist.

They destroy hospitals, schools, houses, killing people on the street, use tanks to crush cars, killing whole families inside.
 
Seeker_UK said:
My interpretation, right-wing politics is common in that region so not unusual to see them on either side of the separatist divide and has been overplayed in understanding why the conflict started and who was behind it.
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Yes, that is probably accurate. FWIW I struggle to picture anything more right-wing than Putin. He just looks like another Hitler to me and has done for decades now. I’ve never understood the way he picks up useful idiots from the left along the way. I guess I’m just not an ideologue; I care infinitely more about real democracy, human rights, civil liberties etc than economics, tribes, structures etc.
 
kenniGT said:
Sanctions should not be lifted until they have democracy and free press.
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As Davidsrsb says, half the world would need sanctioning to get democracy and a free press.
BJ is off to Saudi Arabia. He's not going to be talking much about democracy and free press, I would think.
Recent sanctions were applied to Russia because it invaded a sovereign country within Europe.
 
Seeker_UK said:
No, but making statements parroting / echoing Moscow's line can easily be interpreted as an attempt to associate Nazism with the entire population.
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Indeed, but to be fair, again, and I’m not talking about about anything dmitre has or hasn’t said here, there has been an awful lot of reinterpretation of what someone has said on this thread in order to fit a particular narrative and to push a call for consideration of nuance into a pro Putin framework. Usually sentences that begin with the word “So…..”!
 
Minio said:
As Davidsrsb says, half the world would need sanctioning to get democracy and a free press.
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And that is what should happen.

We should fight for freedom and our values.

We do not deal with criminals at personal level, why do we than on international level?
 
TheDecameron said:
Dmitre used the term Ukrainian Nazi Army which parrots Russian Government Terminology - the ‘Neo-Nazi regime’ ((Ukraine govt), ‘de-Naification’ ( invading Ukraine and killing its citizens).
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It may be parroting but nazi AZOV is now a regular part of UA operating in and around Doneck. Big chances they are behind this slaughter so if it turns to be true that AZOV fired a missle and they are a part of UA, what else should he use than Ukrainian nazi army? Ukrainian peace corps?
 
Seeker_UK said:
There was Right-Wing involvment on both sides. https://www.ifri.org/sites/default/files/atoms/files/rnv95_uk_likhachev_far-right_radicals_final.pdf

My interpretation, right-wing politics is common in that region so not unusual to see them on either side of the separatist divide and has been overplayed in understanding why the conflict started and who was behind it.
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And likely to get commoner, in my view. War is a magnet for the far-right (the fine line between patriotism and nationalism).
 
anubisgrau said:
It may be parroting but nazi AZOV is now a regular part of UA operating in and around Doneck. Big chances they are behind this slaughter so if it turns to be true that AZOV fired a missle and they are a part of UA, what else should he use than Ukrainian nazi army? Ukrainian peace corps?
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OK, so for fear of repeating myself (https://pinkfishmedia.net/forum/threads/ukraine-ii.265387/page-90#post-4631255), Does AZOV have Totchkas? Because I don't think they do.
 
I have some faith in Snopes.com as a reasonably impartial fact-checker. Here's what they say about the Azov movement:

https://www.snopes.com/news/2022/03/02/what-is-ukraines-azov-battalion/

tl;dr: numerically small but disproportionately prominent in news coverage (a bit like UKIP were in the UK).

The roots of the organisation are definitely far-right and some are openly neo-Nazi. There was a Newsnight investigation of these people, and associated groups, a few years ago.

It certainly strikes me as weird (to put it mildly) that the Azov Battalion is an official part of the Ukraine national army - a bit like having a KKK division in the US army, or an EDL regiment in the UK.

In summary (my opinion): the extent of neo-Nazism is being overstated, but it is not nothing, is probably not negligible, and is quite likely to increase as a direct consequence of this conflict.
 
anubisgrau said:
So you think this will be covered by Western media (you trust) even if this turns to be true?
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Yes. It is of course correct to be sceptical of all media, but the thing about Western media is we have a *lot* of it from different political perspectives and from different organisations and individuals. So it's not hard to gain exposure to a plurality of views. During the various wars in Yugoslavia we certainly had pro-Serbian voices in major media over here for example and on the left there was a significant amount of don't swallow the western consensus type commentary.

Indeed I would argue that anyone who is even vaguely politically active in the UK will be regularly reading news and commentary from different perspectives. For example, I knew about the Azov batallion, Banderites and so on from reading left leaning UK media and progressive internet voices way before I knew about it vias Putin's progaganda.
 
kenniGT said:
And that is what should happen.

We should fight for freedom and our values.

We do not deal with criminals at personal level, why do we than on international level?
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More than happy to introduce you to some criminals at a personal level and see how you get on.
 
Seeker_UK said:
OK, so for fear of repeating myself (https://pinkfishmedia.net/forum/threads/ukraine-ii.265387/page-90#post-4631255), Does AZOV have Totchkas? Because I don't think they do.
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We are in danger of getting bogged down in the minutiae. Russia has invaded Ukraine with enormous loss of life and destruction. Ukraine didn’t threaten Russia yet Russia has invaded and occupied them twice already since 2014. The Russian President has said Ukraine isn’t a real country, it’s part of Russia, Ukrainians are not free to choose which economic and defence alliances they join.

The President of Russia has threatened two other European countries directly with ‘consequences’, Sweden and Finland not to join NATO and he has indeed threatened the other countries that make up NATO.

Even now Russia denies it has attacked Ukraine and saying so within Russia can get you up to 15 years in prison.
 
ks.234 said:
More than happy to introduce you to some criminals at a personal level and see how you get on.
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I would not. And that is my point.

Dealing with Russia is sorting Europe safety, that is why it should be important for us, more then some dictator on other side of the planet.
 
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