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Ukraine II

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droodzilla said:
I have some faith in Snopes.com as a reasonably impartial fact-checker. Here's what they say about the Azov movement:

https://www.snopes.com/news/2022/03/02/what-is-ukraines-azov-battalion/

tl;dr: numerically small but disproportionately prominent in news coverage (a bit like UKIP were in the UK).

The roots of the organisation are definitely far-right and some are openly neo-Nazi. There was a Newsnight investigation of these people, and associated groups, a few years ago.

It certainly strikes me as weird (to put it mildly) that the Azov Battalion is an official part of the Ukraine national army - a bit like having a KKK division in the US army, or an EDL regiment in the UK.

In summary (my opinion): the extent of neo-Nazism is being overstated, but it is not nothing, is probably not negligible, and is quite likely to increase as a direct consequence of this conflict.
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There you go with that bloody nuance again….
 
droodzilla said:
Still, I don't see why we are so resistant to the idea that Ukrainian soldiers might be doing terrible things too (on a smaller scale).
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I don't think people are resistant to that idea as much as the idea that it would be happening without us hearing about it. Ok it probably wouldn't be in the BBC News but it would definitely be covered and it would certainly be in Guardian.
 
droodzilla said:
In summary (my opinion): the extent of neo-Nazism is being overstated, but it is not nothing, is probably not negligible, and is quite likely to increase as a direct consequence of this conflict.
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But what has changed is that it is the core of Putin's propaganda and justification for his imperialist war. Which means the emphasis has changed because before it was something to be emphasised from a general anti-fascist viewpoint whereas now it becomes something to approach more cautiously since the war started. A mistake I certainly made and acknowledged early on.

Also there is much more to far right leaning politics in Ukraine (and other parts of Eastern Europe) than the Azov battalion as I am sure you know as it's been widely covered in left leaning media for years.
 
droodzilla said:
I have some faith in Snopes.com as a reasonably impartial fact-checker. Here's what they say about the Azov movement:

https://www.snopes.com/news/2022/03/02/what-is-ukraines-azov-battalion/

tl;dr: numerically small but disproportionately prominent in news coverage (a bit like UKIP were in the UK).

The roots of the organisation are definitely far-right and some are openly neo-Nazi. There was a Newsnight investigation of these people, and associated groups, a few years ago.

It certainly strikes me as weird (to put it mildly) that the Azov Battalion is an official part of the Ukraine national army - a bit like having a KKK division in the US army, or an EDL regiment in the UK.

In summary (my opinion): the extent of neo-Nazism is being overstated, but it is not nothing, is probably not negligible, and is quite likely to increase as a direct consequence of this conflict.
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To add to my earlier post, Newsnight has reported on the far-right in Ukraine several times. I share the videos here without comment as to their accuracy and impartiality, but merely to highlight that discussion of these political currents in Ukraine is not the sole preserve of Putin apologists.



 
I would imagine it is an absolute certainty that both sides in this bitter, hateful conflict will be doing terrible things. Indeed the best way of bringing the west into active involvement would be a Ukrainian false flag operation and the boys from the Azov Battalion look like they would be well up for that.

The more I look at us as a species the more I think the world would be a better place without us.
 
droodzilla said:
To add to my earlier post, Newsnight has reported on the far-right in Ukraine several times. I share the videos here without comment as to their accuracy and impartiality, but merely to highlight that discussion of these political currents in Ukraine is not the sole preserve of Putin apologists.



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As you do not have far right neo nazi, for instance in France? Far Right in/was on the rise in whole Europe lately... even in US.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/aug/11/generation-identity-leader-quits-neo-nazi-links

https://www.trtworld.com/magazine/does-the-french-army-have-a-neo-nazi-problem-45093

https://www.france24.com/en/tag/neo-nazism/

If you google neo nazi and any country, you will always find something...

That France for instance:
EwnrRE-XMAEPgu2
 
droodzilla said:
It certainly strikes me as weird (to put it mildly) that the Azov Battalion is an official part of the Ukraine national army - a bit like having a KKK division in the US army, or an EDL regiment in the UK.
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To a European observer it's very weird. And a potential PR disaster.

Which raises the obvious question - why do it?
 
matthewr said:
I don't think people are resistant to that idea as much as the idea that it would be happening without us hearing about it. Ok it probably wouldn't be in the BBC News but it would definitely be covered and it would certainly be in Guardian.
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I think it has been increasingly difficult to divine the truth about what happens in wartime since at least the first Gulf War, and the advent of "embedded" reporters, dependent on the military and security services for access. Independent journalists that speak truth to power are a dying breed. So, it is quite plausible, in my opinion, that Ukrainian forces might act wickedly, and it not be reported.

These days, I would not trust The Guardian as far as I could throw it. It has not been the same since GCHQ forced its staff to destroy hard drives and memory cards containing the encrypted data leaked by Edward Snowden:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...sed-guardian-editors-snowden-hard-drives-gchq

Bizarre footage. I had no idea it existed.
 
Tony L said:
Yes, that is probably accurate. FWIW I struggle to picture anything more right-wing than Putin. He just looks like another Hitler to me and has done for decades now. I’ve never understood the way he picks up useful idiots from the left along the way. I guess I’m just not an ideologue; I care infinitely more about real democracy, human rights, civil liberties etc than economics, tribes, structures etc.
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Somehow by simply agreeing with (and stoking the flames of) their grievances against the US, UK, EU, etc. so much and so often, they eventually get hoodwinked into thinking he's "on their side"? I mean, I still don't get the psychology either, but apparently it works.
 
matthewr said:
But what has changed is that it is the core of Putin's propaganda and justification for his imperialist war. Which means the emphasis has changed because before it was something to be emphasised from a general anti-fascist viewpoint whereas now it becomes something to approach more cautiously since the war started. A mistake I certainly made and acknowledged early on.

Also there is much more to far right leaning politics in Ukraine (and other parts of Eastern Europe) than the Azov battalion as I am sure you know as it's been widely covered in left leaning media for years.
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I'm sorry, I don't see this. The enemy of our enemy is not our friend.

I don't want to embolden neo-Nazis, even if they are fighting Putin.
 
droodzilla said:
I think it has been increasingly difficult to divine the truth about what happens in wartime since at least the first Gulf War, and the advent of "embedded" reporters, dependent on the military and security services for access. Independent journalists that speak truth to power are a dying breed. So, it is quite plausible, in my opinion, that Ukrainian forces might act wickedly, and it not be reported.
Click to expand...

I think it's plausible that it might take time to surface and might not reach my Mum. But it would be in all sorts of coverage here and links and reports would not be hard to find. As indeed is the case with all these issues in Ukraine before the war.

droodzilla said:
These days, I would not trust The Guardian as far as I could throw it. It has not been the same since GCHQ forced its staff to destroy hard drives and memory cards containing the encrypted data leaked by Edward Snowden:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...sed-guardian-editors-snowden-hard-drives-gchq

Bizarre footage. I had no idea it existed.
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I know that footage well. Because *it was in the Guardian* at the time along with lots of complaints about how it was the act of a police state to force them to do this but how they had no choice but to comply as it was literally illegal not to.
 
matthewr said:
I think it's plausible that it might take time to surface and might not reach my Mum. But it would be in all sorts of coverage here and links and reports would not be hard to find. As indeed is the case with all these issues in Ukraine before the war.
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Yes, it could be a timing issue. But the narrative of the war is sculpted in time by 24 hour news and so forth, so that is not a minor inconvenience. There's also the small matter of people who reveal the atrocities committed by "the good guys" getting thrown in jail (Chelsea Manning, Assange).
matthewr said:
I know that footage well. Because *it was in the Guardian* at the time along with lots of complaints about how it was the act of a police state to force them to do this but how they had no choice but to comply as it was literally illegal not to.
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Aye, the irony of that did not escape me.
 
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