Thorens TD-124/II restoration / upgrade

[Nagraboy]

Thanks Tony, you say anything will do but I suppose olive oil won’t do as it might rot somehow? I’m clueless on such things, have no idea what to buy.

When I do this work today hopefully I can cure the fairly low-level high-pitched whistling caused by the Hanze springs. They aren’t laterally rigid enough to prevent the whole structure from being pulled to the right (by the belt?), causing the 3 motor rods to touch the springs which causes a ringing sound. When I pull them to the left the noise vanishes. The springs have reduced overall noise but this ringing sound was absent with the old rubber grommets. I’ve seen photos of the springs in place on other decks which don’t seem to have this ‘pulled right’ appearance.

 

[Tony L]

No, definitely use a proper mechanical engineering oil! Something like this (eBay) will do no harm and is cheap compared to a lot of the foo out there. There is a lot of choice and everyone will give you a different answer. Certainly don’t assume expensive = right though.

 

[Tony L]

When I do this work today hopefully I can cure the fairly low-level high-pitched whistling caused by the Hanze springs. They aren’t laterally rigid enough to prevent the whole structure from being pulled to the right (by the belt?), causing the 3 motor rods to touch the springs which causes a ringing sound. When I pull them to the left the noise vanishes. The springs have reduced overall noise but this ringing sound was absent with the old rubber grommets. I’ve seen photos of the springs in place on other decks which don’t seem to have this ‘pulled right’ appearance.

What belt are you using?

The picture shows some lateral drag, but not enough that the motor fouls the springs or chassis. I can’t remember what belt was on at this point as it is an old picture.

It is no secret that I consider 98.6% of TD-124 belts to be utter shite. They are just way too tight on the 50Hz pulley and it sounds like yours is in this category. The Hanze belt is the best of the currently commercially available belts I have tried, but I’d still argue it was too tight on the 50Hz pulley.

PS I’m currently testing a new belt contender designed specifically for the 50Hz pulley and I’m liking it a lot so far. It gets rid of a lot of entirely unnecessary tension in the drive system. I won’t say anymore at this point, but I’m sure all will be revealed in time!

 

[Mike P]

Thanks Tony, you say anything will do but I suppose olive oil won’t do as it might rot somehow? I’m clueless on such things, have no idea what to buy.

This oil that I sell will do nicely: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/19426309...d=link&campid=5338728743&toolid=20001&mkevt=1

 

[Nagraboy]

@Tony L

I’m using the Hanze belt since last week - so let us know your findings with the new belt. The Hanze is a lot quieter than the official Thorens replacement belt. I don’t know whether it’s the belt being too tight or that I’ve somehow put the motor out of position whilst moving it about. When doing work on it it does all tend to slosh about a bit. I always need an extra pair of hands when doing anything on the 124. In fact, I wonder how it’s possible on your own! But then I’m a total novice at this.

 

[Nagraboy]

Also, I notice your bearing is still in the chassis when you take the main platter off. I always just pull the whole thing out and replace it carefully and don’t think it’s caused any problems. What’re your thoughts on this?

 

[Tony L]

Also, I notice your bearing is still in the chassis when you take the main platter off. I always just pull the whole thing out and replace it carefully and don’t think it’s caused any problems. What’re your thoughts on this?

I use the original green iron platter which is an interference fit on the main bearing (a Schopper replacement in this case). It just centres itself as there is no slop. I’d not do this with the alloy platter which needs very careful alignment. In my case I far prefer removing just the platter as the Schopper bearing is a very close fit in its housing so there is a risk of blowing the gasket seal out at the bottom. My normal advice would be to follow conventional wisdom and keep doing exactly what you are doing.

 

[Nagraboy]

Ah that’s a relief to know, I was wondering whether I was risking damage by pulling the whole platter out with bearing shaft still attached. But mine is the lighter alloy platter so sounds like I’m doing it ok.

 

[Tony L]

Yes, keep doing exactly as you are. Aligning the alloy platter is a PITA and best avoided!

PS The Swissonor replacement platter is an interference fit too so effectively self-aligning.

 

[Nagraboy]

Yes, keep doing exactly as you are. Aligning the alloy platter is a PITA and best avoided!

PS The Swissonor replacement platter is an interference fit too so effectively self-aligning.

Is the Swissonor one easy to unscrew and replace when necessary? I wonder if that might be an easy to use upgrade for my deck.

 

[Stuart Frazer]

Ah that’s a relief to know, I was wondering whether I was risking damage by pulling the whole platter out with bearing shaft still attached. But mine is the lighter alloy platter so sounds like I’m doing it ok.

You can purchase a used Iron Platter from Schopper on ebay if you want to try one for about £200 delivered. Not sure if, or how, it would work with your SPU though. The Iron Platter is said to give a better sound than the Alloy Platter but its magnetic attraction has to be carefully matched to the cartridge. There is a note on the Schopper listing saying they don't have many of these Iron Platters left - I assume they might offer a trade-in to buyers of their non-magnetic upgrade platter.

 

[Tony L]

The Iron Platter is said to give a better sound than the Alloy Platter but its magnetic attraction has to be carefully matched to the cartridge.

I have both platters and to my ears the iron one is vastly superior. To be honest fitting it was the point I decided to continue with the 124 rather than the 301. It brings a sense of ease, scale, heft and absolute pitch stability. I initially bought the expensive Swissonor platter which did similar, but was poorly finished on the idler-track due to being painted so made an audible ‘flup’ sound every revolution. I eventually returned it for a refund, but notice they have redesigned it since in a way which would remove this issue entirely. I bet the current ones are very good, if very expensive. My feeling swapping between the Swissonor platter and the original Thorens iron platter made no difference, though obviously I have reduced my cartridge choice somewhat (annoyingly no Deccas!). I’m happy with my MP-500. As discussed upthread you can certainly use the iron platter with the SPU and 103, just compensate for the slight additional pull with less VTF (about 1/4g IIRC). It prevents the use of carts with really strong or very low magnets though, e.g. neodymium, Deccas etc.

PS The tweak I’m itching to try is the Retrotone upper platter. Has anyone got any opinions to share? I can’t find any subjective reviews anywhere, which surprises me. It is also slightly taller which would drop the magnetic attraction of the iron platter even further.

 

[Nagraboy]

Thanks for that rundown Tony, it’s something to think about. And I’ve seen the RetroTone upper platter too but since mine seems nice ‘n flat I couldn’t see the value in it.

I’m confused about the grounding - even Schopper are selling a Mk1 TD 124 with a 2-core mains lead, as mine is.

How is the deck grounded at all with only 2-core mains cables and no extra grounding wire anywhere? And why did my deck which still has its 2-core mains lead (a service replacement), have the ground wire of the 3009 attached to the chassis point on the right side of the chassis, when there is no path to ground as far as I can see. I got zero hum with this arrangement btw.

I know it’s best practice to fit the 3-core lead but I’m trying to understand how the grounding works in both situations.

 

[Tony L]

I’m confused about the grounding - even Schopper are selling a Mk1 TD 124 with a 2-core mains lead, as mine is.

Remember Schopper are not a UK company. I have no idea what safety regulations apply in Switzerland, nor how their mains earth works, but here in the UK any electrical device with a metal chassis requires proper earthing via the mains lead.

Looking at your system pics I’d argue this was more essential than ever as the Graham Slee Accession looks to be powered by a wall-wart PSU (i.e. it is just sending an isolated DC power to the phono stage), so really the only path to mains earth in your whole system is via the interconnect signal return and the Quad 303. You need to get the 124 properly earthed!

 

[Nagraboy]

I’ve got a Croft 25 (with phono stage) as well now, so I’m using that. I have my usual ground loops though seemingly because both Croft and 303 are 3-core mains wired - this tends to happen unless I use the Quad 34. Anyway, I’ll sort out ground loops after the TD 124 is sorted.

 

[Nagraboy]

Been replacing the mains lead today. Here it is rewired to a 3-core cable instead of the standard 2-core:

Next up is to fit a new arm cable made in the SME design with drain wires on the phono plugs, hopefully this will reduce hum pickup and improve safety. Thanks to @Tony L again for the advice here.

 

[Tony L]

Excellent, that looks fine. You have now earth continuity to the turntable chassis and to the motor case. A bonus is it also means the centre spindle has a path back to earth which IME makes any static issues a thing of the past.

 

[highcut28]

Hi all 124 lovers here
I have 2 of these beauties and have posted here before gaining much knowledge from the membership as i ve restored and tried to optimise them.
I have been trying to quiten them
Putting a stethoscope on them I found that the loudest noise is heard when its applied to the armboards ( one has a 9 inch arm the other the thick oversized 12 in armboard )
I accept this is difficult to do as the 124 chassis is curved just about everywhere and that the armboard is the only flat surface for proper contact between bell of stethscope and surface
This has led me to plan a big massier plinth and I will mount the 124 on it without the 'mushrooms' - probably gently bolting chassis to plinth - and i will mount SME 3012 II onto plinth.
This is after all the way Garrards and other idler transcriptors like the Lenco G88 are set up.

I have for some time been using the tt without the top platter, and do feel that it sounds better that way.
I have put in an aftermarket main bearing on one of my 124s (the one with the ferrous platter) . Its a very substantial thing.
The fella who makes them has quite a following on LencoHeaven . He makes these things for Lenco, Garrard and the 124.
He has sold many of these, sending them all over the world.
I have found this is indeed an upgrade - these is quite an improvement in the bass and in the soundstage. It is quiter too.
Hope this hasnt ruffled feathers of those of you who believe the 124 should be used as it was intended.
Of course its a lovely thing that way and works so well ( i do miss the instant stop / start now that i dont use the top platter).
None of my changes have hacked them and are fully reversible .

 

[Tony L]

My approach has been to get the 124 to run as quietly as I possibly can without relying on a heavyweight plinth as I don’t seem to be a fan of mass-damping sonically. I accept I’ll never get it as quiet as a belt-drive deck, but I’ve certainly got it quiet enough for my taste, and I’ve done so without killing the life and soul of the deck. With experience you will grow to learn which noise comes from which part of the transport, e.g. motor vibration, belt-noise, step-pulley/eddy-brake noise, idler noise etc. As this thread highlights I view the belt as a big problem and most currently available ones to be less than acceptable (basically too tight). I’m testing a new one now which I think I like a lot. More on that in the future.

In other news my ‘buy it now button’ finger got the better of me and I caved in and bought a Retrotone top platter. The top platter has been the bane of my existence as I am hopelessly obsessive about this sort of thing and the smallest amount of run-out just triggers me in a way that is not healthy. My original top platter was obviously a ‘Friday afternoon’ job as it isn’t damaged, just badly machined, especially on the chamfer. It should never have got out of the factory. I replaced it with a Swissonor one, which is vastly better, but still not 100% right. I’d say it has about 0.3-0.4mm run-out. In the world of TD-124 top platters that is bloody good (just look at Ken Micallef’s!), but me? Triggered. It just winds me up. I respect that it is an exceptionally hard thing to make, and they make it as Thorens made it, so I’m not knocking it. It is what it is. The Retrotone is something else entirely. It is machined from a solid billet of aluminium, is a fair bit heavier and slightly taller. Most importantly it is flat! The run-out is not visible to me, and trust me I know how to look! I think it may sound better too, lower noise-floor and more solid, but it is a hard one to assess as changing it takes a very long time (involving unscrewing and transferring the 45 adapter centre and mat, resetting VTA etc).

I’m listening to Hania Rani’s Live from S2 now and it sounds superb, really nice solid piano, deep bass, lovely vocal etc. It certainly hasn’t broken anything. I also got the mat adapter and cork inner thingy, but I’m not using those at present. I used a 5% code on eBay which made me feel a little better! I need to slightly adjust the clutch at sometime as it rubs a bit (i.e. the clutch needs to go up a smidge), but I don’t use it so that can wait until I next do an oil or belt change.

PS Current state of play: Stereo Lab plinth, Shopper main bearing and armboard, Audio Silente sintered motor, step-pulley and idler bushings, Hanze-Fi motor springs, prototype belt, green iron sub-platter, Retrotone top-platter. Rather more modded/further from stock than I’d have ideally liked, but it is working very nicely indeed.

 

[InSides]

I am hopelessly obsessive about this sort of thing and the smallest amount of run-out just triggers me in a way that is not healthy

You are not alone. The human eye is surprisingly susceptible to even the smallest amounts of runout, and once you see it, you can never un-see it.

Even in machining platters, runouts can easily be introduced if the part needs to me removed in between operations (i.e. swap sides) unless proper, extensive care when mounting is introduced. And while horizontal runout definitely introduces audible artifacts when playing (just think of off-centered records), vertical runout just drives me mad. So much so, I redid my platter three times.

In mass manufacturing, tolerances are introduced to, among other things, decrease the rejection rate. Not sure about yours - but Ken Micalef's (judging from his videos) should have gone straight to the bin. How he continues to use that turntable in his review system in that condition is beyond me. I've seen (and heard) a few TD-124s, but cannot seem to recall if I've spotted runouts with any of them.

I would be interested in the belt you are testing, once you can share more details, as I am still struggling with the proper formulation for my drive system.