Thorens TD-124/II restoration / upgrade

[Tony L]

To be honest I very nearly bought that M2R myself! I’m also curious as to the strengths/weaknesses of a perfect condition 3009 Series II with a compatible cartridge, though in most respects my little dem against a SL1200G put my mind at rest. The 124 just sounded better overall to my ears, and it wouldn’t have done if the arm was too much of a limiting factor. My feelings are the 3009 may not be the last word in frequency extension at either end, but it has a very natural balance that just gets out of the way as long as its a decent match with the cart. I’m content with it and it is such a stunningly beautiful piece of aesthetic and ergonomic design I’m very reluctant to change it. The whole turntable is a work of art that is such a pleasure to use. It feels like playing records on a Henry Moore sculpture!

 

[Evo]

Nice to hear that you are happy with the 3009 Tony. My deck also came with a Shure V15 mkIII with the cantilever sheared off. I wonder how it might sound in my system? If anyone has a replacement tip they would sell I'd like to give it a go. I believe there are a couple of replacement styli available, some better than others but I can't remember which was the one to go for; Paratrace rings a bell as does Jico

 

[Nagraboy]

Nagraboy, being a fellow 124 owner I am very interested in your thoughts on the M2 arm. Im still using the SME 3009 mkii unimproved that was originally sold with the deck in the late 1960's. You have made a good few changes to the deck so isolating the improvement the M2 brings might be tough, nevertheless your thoughts would be appreciated.
Since buying mine a couple of years ago I have replaced the motor isolation rubbers for the springs and clips from Hanze, popped it into a new plinth and swapped the zamac platter for an original iron one. It sounds great but the arm is probably the weak link.

You’re right I’ve made quite a few changes lately but the arm, cart and armboard were all fitted a couple of days after the springs, idler, belt and plinth were added. These motor and plinth changes seemed to generally reduce noise of all kinds so will have made the differences with arms/carts more apparent.

It’s difficult to say exactly what the newer SME M2-9R arm is doing better than the 3009 Series 2 Imp, as there was also a change from 2M Blue to SPU #1S, so I can’t make any definitively claims. The 3009/2M worked very well together though, and I very much enjoyed my listening time with those two components.

From what I’ve read, the M2-9R was designed to answer requests from the Far East for a classic steel-tubed arm suited to heavier low-compliance carts ie. SPUs. With that knowledge in mind, I’m sure I’ve got the ideal partner for the SPU. It was also surprisingly straight-forward to set up - even for a first time novice - and is extremely well made. Maybe that’s not much help but there it is. The sound I’m getting right now is gutsy and firm but with precision and stability - maybe a mixture of SPU and LS3/5a signatures?

 

[Evo]

You’re right I’ve made quite a few changes lately but the arm, cart and armboard were all fitted a couple of days after the springs, idler, belt and plinth were added. These motor and plinth changes seemed to generally reduce noise of all kinds so will have made the differences with arms/carts more apparent.

It’s difficult to say exactly what the newer SME M2-9R arm is doing better than the 3009 Series 2 Imp, as there was also a change from 2M Blue to SPU #1S, so I can’t make any definitively claims. The 3009/2M worked very well together though, and I very much enjoyed my listening time with those two components.

From what I’ve read, the M2-9R was designed to answer requests from the Far East for a classic steel-tubed arm suited to heavier low-compliance carts ie. SPUs. With that knowledge in mind, I’m sure I’ve got the ideal partner for the SPU. It was also surprisingly straight-forward to set up - even for a first time novice - and is extremely well made. Maybe that’s not much help but there it is. The sound I’m getting right now is gutsy and firm but with precision and stability - maybe a mixture of SPU and LS3/5a signatures?

Thanks Nagra. I've always fancied a go with an SPU but the non magnetic platter is a must. Let's face it, as lovely as the Schopper platter is, you pay handsomely for it. It might be a purchase in the future.

 

[Tony L]

I've always fancied a go with an SPU but the non magnetic platter is a must.

It actually isn’t a deal-breaker at all. It accounts for about 0.25 to 0.5g attraction with an SPU IIRC and many run it very happily (just track it lighter by that amount). Same with a DL-103 which I have run happily with the iron platter myself. Both cartridges track heavy so it isn’t a huge percentage of the tracking weight behaving as a variable. The cartridges to avoid are modern ones with strong neodymium magnets and sadly Deccas. These just have too much pull.

I figured a way to set the tracking weight with the top platter removed so I was measuring it at exactly the height of the record surface.

PS The thicker the mat you use the less magnetic attraction.

 

[Evo]

I had a Phase Tech P1 cart which was lovely but the attraction to the platter was so great it was virtually unusable. I've tried both a Denon and a Transfig which worked fine with less downforce.
Currently I have an Ortofon 2M Bronze, half inched from my dad. It sounds good, better than the Audionote IQ1 I was using previously.
I might see if I can source a Jico SAS stylus for the Shure. The Shure was used on the deck when the first owner had it (I'm the second owner) and the old boy clearly had good taste in hifi.

 

[anubisgrau]

It all needs to warm up properly and bed in but I’m already enjoying a bold and colourful sound. The SUT (bottom right, in the dark) is the Mini Nano by French manufacturer Sculpture A and is 1:26 gain, especially built for SPUs, and sourced from Ammonite Audio along with the SPU #1S.

Curious about the SUT, especially if you have any experience with other SUTs.... AFAIK it's a product of French Ana Mighty Sound, though designed and produced in Hungary.

 

[Nagraboy]

Curious about the SUT, especially if you have any experience with other SUTs.... AFAIK it's a product of French Ana Mighty Sound, though designed and produced in Hungary.

My dealer has tried a number of SUTs with SPUs and found the Sculpture A to be the best one. I don’t have any others here to compare. I am having some trouble controlling hum pick-up, so that’s a bit of a pain.

 

[Tony L]

I am having some trouble controlling hum pick-up, so that’s a bit of a pain.

Have you replaced the 124’s mains lead with a proper three-core one? I’d do that and isolate the arm ground away from the turntable as that may help with any hum.

 

[Nagraboy]

Have you replaced the 124’s mains lead with a proper three-core one? I’d do that and isolate the arm ground away from the turntable as that may help with any hum.

Not yet Tony, I’m just recovering from all the recent work done and feel reluctant to take the armboard off again so soon, it’s all new to me and I don’t want to mess it up. I know I do need to sort it all out though. I need to buy a new arm cable too as the one I have is a bit tatty.

I’m not actually too sure about how to change the mains lead - is it screw down terminals for bare mains wires? It looked like that from the pic you posted.

What do you mean by ‘isolate the arm ground away from the turntable’?

Both TT and arm ground are currently joined together at the screening can.

 

[Tony L]

I’m not actually too sure about how to change the mains lead - is it screw down terminals for bare mains wires? It looked like that from the pic you posted.

Yes, there is the two conductor terminal block, and then take the earth wire to the bolt on my pic. Soldering or crimping an eyelet to the mains earth lead makes this far easier and neater. The turntable is now safely grounded.

What do you mean by ‘isolate the arm ground away from the turntable’?

Now the turntable motor and chassis are grounded you don’t need to ask the phono stage to do it. As such don’t take the arm lead/armbase earth lead to the turntable chassis. Just screw the arm-lead earth to the screening can. This way there is no electrical connection between the arm and the turntable (the wooden armboard is an insulator), but they are still both correctly grounded.

 

[Nagraboy]

The arm-lead is already screwed to the screening can only. But the second lead (the chassis lead) is linking the chassis to the screening can. So yes, arm and chassis are linked.

From there, the arm-lead goes to the SUT and another lead links the SUT to the phono stage (which uses a fig 8 mains lead for it’s PSU. If I detach this lead there’s a ground loop.

Update:

My mains block has a green grounding post. I suppose I could tie the chassis ground to that rather than to the screening can? That would break the link between the arm and chassis grounds, I think?

 

[Tony L]

I’d just replace the mains cable with a proper three-core cable, e.g. Amazon could have some with you tomorrow. That way it is neat, safe, and would almost get through a modern PAT test (the deck itself would, the open-bottom plinth wouldn’t!).

 

[Nagraboy]

I’d just replace the mains cable with a proper three-core cable, e.g. Amazon could have some with you tomorrow. That way it is neat, safe, and would almost get through a modern PAT test (the deck itself would, the open-bottom plinth wouldn’t!).

Yes, I think you’ve spurred me on to get this done now. While I’m at it I’ll get a better arm cable too. I saw one on eBay, a Van Damme one with extra drain wires like the SME manual shows with the original SME cable. Can’t hurt to follow SME’s instructions to the letter.

 

[Tony L]

Yes, that makes sense. I use a SME vdH lead with my 3009 (I fitted an RCA base just like your M2R). I just have both earth tags connected to my preamp as I’m just running an MM cart.

 

[anubisgrau]

My dealer has tried a number of SUTs with SPUs and found the Sculpture A to be the best one. I don’t have any others here to compare. I am having some trouble controlling hum pick-up, so that’s a bit of a pain.

Who said so, Ammonite or Ana Mighty Sound?

No complaints from here, just a curiosity (moreover I do have a strong respect for Ammonite on basis of what they sell/promote, no commercial affiliation). I assume this relates to the commercially available SUTs, especially for the price range (695 quid if I remember well). That's very normal price and old school compared to five figure madness all around the audio market. We played with SUTs for SPUs some years ago and found that some very old ones are hard to beat today, but I have no experience with Sculpture A either. Given that I do have some connections with the Budapest crew who's behind it, maybe I manage to organize something.

 

[Nagraboy]

Who said so, Ammonite or Ana Mighty Sound?

No complaints from here, just a curiosity (moreover I do have a strong respect for Ammonite on basis of what they sell/promote, no commercial affiliation). I assume this relates to the commercially available SUTs, especially for the price range (695 quid if I remember well). That's very normal price and old school compared to five figure madness all around the audio market. We played with SUTs for SPUs some years ago and found that some very old ones are hard to beat today, but I have no experience with Sculpture A either. Given that I do have some connections with the Budapest crew who's behind it, maybe I manage to organize something.

The recommendation was from Hugo at Ammonite @Shuggie . I like it that he tries to maintain a stock of SPUs ready to post out, because otherwise there’d be a long lead time. Same with the SUT. As a customer I think that’s worth supporting.

Although I don’t have any others to compare it with, I’m certainly liking what I’m hearing. Feels like the Sculpture A is getting a lot from the SPU #1S. I wouldn’t mind hearing a few other SUTs but from what Hugo says the one I have is good enough to be used with all compatible SPUs. I remember when the late CliveG of this parish listed his A23 T1 Hommage for sale. Now that’s very pricey but I’d love to hear one.

 

[Shuggie]

Who said so, Ammonite or Ana Mighty Sound?

No complaints from here, just a curiosity (moreover I do have a strong respect for Ammonite on basis of what they sell/promote, no commercial affiliation). I assume this relates to the commercially available SUTs, especially for the price range (695 quid if I remember well). That's very normal price and old school compared to five figure madness all around the audio market. We played with SUTs for SPUs some years ago and found that some very old ones are hard to beat today, but I have no experience with Sculpture A either. Given that I do have some connections with the Budapest crew who's behind it, maybe I manage to organize something.

You should - these SUTs are very good indeed, and the designer has a natural design gift. The new silver wired Sculpture A SUT has confounded my prejudice against silver by being quite stunning, and beautifully balanced sounding.

 

[Nagraboy]

Got my new arm cable today which is very similar to the SME one with the drain leads on the phono plugs, so I’m going to fit that today, hopefully it’ll reduce hum in the SUT, as suggested. I’m also going to fit the correctly-earthed 3-core mains lead. Couldn’t find any eyelets to use so hopefully I’ll still be able to attach the earth wire to the brown block thing (!) in Tony’s photo.

Will it be ok to remove the armboard and just flip the chassis over to do this work? I’m a bit concerned about the motor wobbling about, don’t know if it’s an issue or not. Any advice there?

I found this comment on the ArtOfSound forum earlier which seems to advise against replacing the mains lead and in fact, suggests it can lead to grounding problems. No I’m really confused:



“And if you choose to use shielded mains cable, how will you earth the deck? Via the screening? If so, unless you also connect the metalwork of the pickup arm to the same point, there will be two pieces of exposed metal work which will be independently earthed: not an ideal situation and a possible hazard under fault conditions. If you bond the two together, then a earth loop is created with possible hum problems. If you disconnect the arm earth from the preamplifier, then it is not necessarily being earthed at the point of lowest electromagnetic potential as far as RFI is concerned.

I would say leave it alone: "if it aint broke, don't fix it". I have three TD124/II decks and all of them use the original two-core mains flex.

If you must replace the mains cable, use two-core, double-insulated, cable of say 10 amp rating. The motor only draws about 15W. There is no need to worry about RFI entering the motor - it will have absolutely no effect, unlike perhaps a preamplifier.”



Also, @Tony L when I fitted the Audio Silente idler wheel you suggested I put some oil on it, which I didn’t do as I don’t have any. Any suggestions as to which to buy?

 

[Tony L]

Also, @Tony L when I fitted the Audio Silente idler wheel you suggested I put some oil on it, which I didn’t do as I don’t have any. Any suggestions as to which to buy?

Oil is a very interesting subject on the TD-124 and one I’ve not come to a firm conclusion about yet. I’m currently using an oil recommended for Revox open-reel recorders, but I can’t remember what it’s called as the label has fallen off the little bottle! For the idler bearing pretty much anything will do. The motor is far more interesting and up for debate. My view is it needs a heavier oil than many of the boutique sellers think. Far too many seem to think unloaded spin-down time is a selling point, which is a misunderstanding of the forces and loads in play to my mind. I prefer a heavier oil here, as I do in the main bearing. Not ‘heavy’, but certainly more viscous than say the Schopper sewing machine grade stuff which just seems to evaporate from the motor IME.

tldr; just put a drop of something on the idler bearing, but don’t worry about it too much. It is one of the least critical areas. The motor, step-pulley and main bearing are the key areas.