Thinking aloud: obj / sub / ABX cyclic arguments etc

[Joe P]

Mick,

Mick I'll type a proper reply in a bit. My mum says I have to come for lunch.

Joe

 

[Robert]

I always notice that there is a whiff of wannabe alpha male surrounding some posters. A desire to occupy a perceived high ground, and mock the viewpoints of others. Language is emotive, whingers is a case in point. Why use such a description if you are not belittling and provoking? It's not calling a spade a spade, it's being unnecessarily rude.

Richard, that's a desirable ambition but I think it plays down the cause and effect element.
People do say genuinely stupid things on forums, blatantly wrong things, express hard and fast position on a topic, and some posters will quite genuinely dislike others. The forum reflects real life and I wonder if expecting people to disguise their true feelings is realistic. Clearly there have to be limits.

If one poster is being particularly emotive toward another, is it realistic to expect expect model behaviour in such cases?

Another phrase that irks is the 'competently' designed one. Some might prefer warm and cuddly, or the second order distortion that valves make. I only buy things I like listening to. I couldn't live with the active studio monitors I heard recently. Why is an amplifier or DAC that appeals to these tastes less competent?

The term 'competent' has a specific definition, at least with electronics where it implies transparency. It means nothing else and people should use it in context.
One of two well known amp designers substitute the term 'blameless' - meaning you can't pin any specific sonic signature to the component in question.

If something is 'warm and cuddly' it is by definition imposing a signature on whatever passes through it, therefore it isn't transparent, and isn't competent/blameless.

Blameless is a better term IMO.

I'd say greater than 80% of post reports revolve around these users.

Then the issue is crystallised.

 

[clivem2]

Well, I think this thread has been a resounding success in tackling the issue.

Yes, it's the perfect worked example of what the issues are!

 

[martin47]

...You have had over 600 postings in this thread, most of them total hog wash, have you mods come up with a plan yet or are you going to forget about it ?

Mick is absolutely right in my opinion.

PFM is becoming the playground for a small group who just like to argue for the sake of it. It's boring.

Tony, why not just kill the whole Audio Room for six months? Maybe the problem kids will move to a different school?

 

[clivem2]

The term 'competent' has a specific definition, at least with electronics where it implies transparency. It means nothing else and people should use it in context.
One of two well known amp designers substitute the term 'blameless' - meaning you can't pin any specific sonic signature to the component in question.

When I asked for specs about how a competently designed DAC should measure all I got were references to DACs that were thought to be transparent and therefore they must be competently designed. This competently designed angle seems remarkably subjective to me, without defined specifications it seems purely subjective.

 

[Robert]

Yes, it's the perfect worked example of what the issues are!

Indeed.

It demonstrates that one side blaming the other is avoiding the issue, since both sides and many in the middle are equally to blame, and its got zilch to do with obj/sub issues.

Shouty posters at one end, oversensitive souls at the other, provocative types in the middle wanting their fun.

Any serious attempt to 'resolve' it will certainly impact the forum, for good or bad.

 

[Mescalito]

When I asked for specs about how a competently designed DAC should measure all I got were references to DACs that were thought to be transparent and therefore they must be competently designed. This competently designed angle seems remarkably subjective to me, without defined specifications it seems purely subjective.

The spec requirements are the same as for a transparent/competantly designed/blameless amp, CD player, Tuner. The digital jiggery pokery is essentially out of the equation. Get a flat FR, good S/n ratio, & low distortion & job done, essentially.

Chris

 

[Mick P]

Mick is absolutely right in my opinion.

PFM is becoming the playground for a small group who just like to argue for the sake of it. It's boring.

Tony, why not just kill the whole Audio Room for six months? Maybe the problem kids will move to a different school?

Martin

Killing the audio room due to the repetitive behaviour of a few twisted nutters is self defeating.

The answer is simple

Leave the topic alone, it is a legitimate topic after all. The level of modding should be the same as for other topics. There is no need for special rules.

Just ban Darryl, whatsnext, Arthur and Steven Toy either from the forum or at least from the audio section. With those out of the way, the noise level will plummet.

The ball is now in the moderators court.

Mick

 

[Robert]

When I asked for specs about how a competently designed DAC should measure all I got were references to DACs that were thought to be transparent and therefore they must be competently designed. This competently designed angle seems remarkably subjective to me, without defined specifications it seems purely subjective.

Possibly because it's been covered previously several times, and you seem to be looking for absolutes for argument's sake?
Perhaps this is a large part of the problem?
I think it is, personally.

If the topic genuinely interests you, start a thread to discuss the topic.
It would be a good experiment actually, if only to see which clique derails it into a political slanging match first.

 

[Ibbots]

Best thread ever...

How about making it sticky and renaming it:

"Grown Men Bickering about Bickering: obj / sub / ABX cyclic arguments etc"

In future any offending arguer/ees can dumped in here by the moderators and not allowed to post in any other threads for a week. They can fight it for themselves if they want without ruining the original thread for the OP and others and the rest of us still get the Schadenfreude if we like.

Well that's my suggestion for what little it's worth.

 

[LostAtSea]

If I post asking for advice and am clear about the responses I wish to receive, there are those here that blatantly respond without respecting the original request. E.G. a question 'who uses Cable X?' saw responses such as "I haven't ever used it but.."

Hmm, now that I've typed the above, I fnd that I don't really care much after all. Weird.

S.

 

[darrylfunk]

The comments regarding my involvement with the 'hypothetical Nait discussion' leave me somewhat bemused as I haven't taken part in any Nait discussion and had nothing to do with Andrew's earlier post in which the hypothetical exchange was suggested. I do think it is interesting that the poster seeks to link us together in this manner though.

For the sake of clarity let me make my position clear. I have no interest in restructuring pfm - I didn't instigate or encourage the creation of this thread. What Tony (and his moderation team) choose to do with this forum is entirely up to him - after all, it quite literally belongs to him. As far as permanent bans are concerned, yes I am in favour of them if a person repeatedly receives short period bans; I'm sorry if some take this stance as a personal attack as thatis not the intention - but I note that those who find this idea unpleasant are those who it is most likely to apply to. Bear in mind that the vast majority of forum contributors have never received any kind of ban.

I find the whole objective/subjective issue to be something of a 'red herring' (together with free speech V Censorship. I've read plenty of posts by supporters of both approaches and have had no issue with them (though I may not have agreed). As with many things, it's not so much the core of the argument, but the manner in which that argument is presented/made that is the issue. Perhaps some people think that an argument inherently contains (or should contain) an element of aggression - no doubt many domestic arguments are perceived to be 'won' by the party showing the greater level of aggression and so the perception is encouraged.

my humble apologies if i have misunderstood your position, thanks for clarifying.

thanks too for your very reasonable stance.

 

[clivem2]

Possibly because it's been covered previously several times, and you seem to be looking for absolutes for argument's sake?
Perhaps this is a large part of the problem?
I think it is, personally.

If the topic genuinely interests you, start a thread to discuss the topic.
It would be a good experiment actually, if only to see which clique derails it into a political slanging match first.

I'm not bringing this up for argument's sake. I've seen the comment about flat FR, good S/N ratio and low distortion - though that's a bit vague; so for example do we insist on 20Hz to 20kHz +/- 0.5db?

I don't see the point of starting a thread on this as quite rightly there will be differing opinions on the specs and no one can be "right". The issue I see is that "competently designed" gets used a lot but it must means different things to different people. That's really what's behind my mentioning but unfortunately it gets seen as only being for argument's sake.

Another reason not to start a thread like this is that it will only end up in the same cyclical argument. We should try to keep cyclical arguments just to this thread.

 

[Robert]

I'm not bringing this up for argument's sake. I've seen the comment about flat FR, good S/N ratio and low distortion - though that's a bit vague; so for example do we insist on 20Hz to 20kHz +/- 0.5db?

I don't see the point of starting a thread on this as quite rightly there will be differing opinions on the specs and no one can be "right". The issue I see is that "competently designed" gets used a lot but it must means different things to different people. That's really what's behind my mentioning but unfortunately it gets seen as only being for argument's sake.

Another reason not to start a thread like this is that it will only end up in the same cyclical argument. We should try to keep cyclical arguments just to this thread.

How such a thread ends up depends entirely on what people want.
If they want genuine discussion it will be very useful IMO.
If the game players pile in it'll go south within the day.

Why not ask for an event where say, a low spec dac such as a £20 Behringer is compared to something state of the art like a £6k Weiss.
Plenty on this forum could generate a set of measurements for the Behringer and Weiss.
We could do a sighted and a blind test to keep everyone happy, then discuss the results.
The listening tests might demonstrate a large, easily identifiable sonic difference.
They might indicate that nobody could hear a difference.
Either way, it informs the debate since if the 'bad spec' Behringer sound just like the Weiss, you've established something of a benchmark in your quest for competency. If it sound clearly inferior, we need to look again and raise the bar.

Why would anyone object to such an event and thread?
I'll tell you now, many would wade-in and start dissing from the off - and that's the problem.

Ultimately it's a forum moderation issue really, in the absence of self moderation.

 

[John]

Arthur, it's about attitude in my opinion. Like some others have said, I rarely post here about audio any more, it's just not any fun when every experience, thought or opinion could be questioned, with demand for "proof".
It only took a few persistent posters to turn ZG into a fun free zone for many of the old regulars. It died a quiet death because of it.

If there's no fun to be had anymore in posting our experiences in the hobby that is all about enjoyment, then I'd expect this forum to go the same way as ZG, which I would deeply regret.
I'd then expect the same anti-fun mafia to move onto other forums and kill them off too, slowly, surely.

I don't have any answers but I hope that Tony can come up with some, because I really liked pfm.

I'm not anti-science. I am anti-scientist when they suck the fun out of my hobby.

I can see the same thing happening here. Perhaps we have jumped the shark.

 

[AndrewM]

......Why not ask for an event where say, a low spec dac such as a £20 Behringer is compared to something state of the art like a £6k Weiss......

I'd certainly have no objection and would be happy to take part and interested in the result - but the devil's in the details - there are so many variables that it gives those who don't agree with the results plenty of scope to attack the methodology, so it probably wouldn't provide any sort of real closure to the argument.

 

[YNWOAN]

I have a Behringer £20 D2A/A2D and would be interested in taking part. I genuinely don't mind what the results are so definitely won't be offended by whatever methodology is chosen (I've got an iphone 5 too ).

However, all this is rather off topic with regard to this thread. Perhaps all that can be constructively said on the matter has now been said?

(I'm off to my friend Dave's house now to play with his hi-fi - come over if you are free Si)

 

[maxflinn]

I'd certainly have no objection and would be happy to take part and interested in the result - but the devil's in the details - there are so many variables that it gives those who don't agree with the results plenty of scope to attack the methodology, so it probably wouldn't provide any sort of real closure to the argument.

If a properly controlled double blind ABX test couldn't seperate them sonically then what's to attack?

 

[Evil Emperor]

I think the only solution is to get rid of the conch altogether, kill the fat kid with the glasses and get Roger to sacrifice Ralph to a pig's head on a stick.

It's the only sensible option.

 

[Robert]

I can see the same thing happening here. Perhaps we have jumped the shark.

I don't buy this argument.

Three people sitting in a room discussing their subjective preferences on three amplifiers is no more fun than the same three doing the same having conducted a blind test. As Mark (YNMOAN) said earlier, this is a red herring.

If there is an issue it's attitudinal, and if it's down to a few posters then someone can have a quiet word in the first instance and remove them if it's deemed necessary.

Since I have first hand knowledge of ZG post collapse (note post ), this is what really happened.

ZG faded away for a host of reasons, but it certainly cannot be placed at the door of science, ABX or controlled listening tests methods since it was always more anti these things than pfm. It was the home of the round-earth subjectivist brigade.

ZG had half a dozen pretty thuggish posters who were quite frankly bullies. They weren't expelled soon enough. It also had a dozen or so regulars who simply either gave up on audio forums or went pro and took a back seat. It also got squeezed by the emergence of Wigwam and latterly other forums.

It seems hard to believe, but I was actually requested by the then mods and admin to go and try 'sciencing-up' the place in order to revive its flagging fortunes, but in hindsight it was too late for that.

There isn't room for more large, broad based hi-fi forums.
Just take a look at the plethora of small forums that have sprung up in recent years. None can achieve critical mass.

Ironically, what did revive ZGs fortunes, albeit temporarily, was removing bans of known 'irritants' and allowing them free range to start hurling buns
But I had no real interest in such a chaotic forum, neither did Simon (Tenson) so we bought it for a small sum and it's now a manufacturer based forum/blog. For the record, that's fine with us since it's read stats are great, google finds stuff on there pretty easily and it's an inexpensive sales tool, plus Q&A platform.
Simple fact is that if we put stuff on there, enough people read it to make it viable.
Having said that, it has no real rules so anyone can post - pro or anti the stance of the owners.