Thinking aloud: obj / sub / ABX cyclic arguments etc

[Tony L]

As I've mentioned elsewhere today I'm becoming somewhat tired of the evangelical / fundamentalist nature of much of the audio room debates of late. This is a very large forum with thousands of active members, yet a tiny handful on the furthest reaches of each ideological extreme seem to be hijacking pretty much every audio room thread and turning it in to a variation of the same dreary argument. I feel something needs to be done here, but I'm determined not to either further split the forum into different factions with different rooms, or worse position the entire forum towards either ideology (as, like most here I suspect, I'm right in the middle-ground myself).

Two ideas initially come to mind, both variations of the same thing:

a) Update the 'Thread-Crapping' clause of the AUP to include ABX / blind-test, i.e. contain the discussion to those threads dealing with it from the outset.

b) Use the vBulletin thread-prefix system as used in the Classifieds are to allow the OP of a given thread to decide if it's a subjective thread, technical thread, ABX test or open for free discussion. The categories would need to be defined, the ones I give are for illustration only.

It's the evangelism / fundamentalism that is so tedious and damaging to the forum. The extremists on either side are very few in number, yet somehow seem to thread-crap / bring the same tired argument wherever the slightest opportunity to do so exists and it's sinking the audio room way below the rest of the forum quality-wise. This audio discussion stuff is after all meant to be fun, the last thing I want to read is the say tired pitch time and again.

So, any ideas baring in mind I don't want any new rooms - this is audio discussion - it just needs to be allowed to occur without the endless hectoring.

 

[kasperhauser]

a) Update the 'Thread-Crapping' clause of the AUP to include ABX / blind-test, i.e. contain the discussion to those threads dealing with it from the outset.

My first reaction is that this approach suggests that one end of the evangelical spectrum is welcome anywhere, whereas the other end is only allowed where specified. Seems out of balance.

Bear in mind I mostly only read the audio room for comic relief of the sort you are (quite understandably) endeavoring to circumvent.

 

[muzzer]

Ban the main protagonists for six months.

 

[Tony L]

Bear in mind I mostly only read the audio room for comic relief of the sort you are (quite understandably) endeavoring to circumvent.

That's actually a valid point - there is certainly an argument to be made that the audio room is statistically the most successful discussion room on the site despite it being my least-favourite (I'm far more at home in music, classic, photo and off topic, the obj/sub/fanboi thing just bores me to tears). As I say I'm thinking aloud here, nothing is defined or anything, I'm just fishing for ideas, feedback etc. Doing nothing at all is one of the obvious options. I've done it before, and I'll no doubt do it again! I just don't understand how this room has ended up quite so confrontational when the rest of the site just isn't (the odd political argument in off topic excepted, but one expects folk to argue over politics, not over bloody hi-fi!).

 

[johnfromnorwich]

Ban the main protagonists for six months.

As it stands, they haven't breached the AUP so that would be pretty arbitrary. Something needs to be done though because as it stands the only reason to use the audio room is questions relating to functionality of specific bits of kit. General topics are just shut down by the usual suspects on both sides. I actually do research (as in research council funded research) into auditory memory and a lot of it involves phenomena like masking, restoration and continuity illusions that are fundamental to how we perceive sound. I long ago gave up trying to contribute to general audio threads. No one is interested, including the self proclaimed objectivists.

 

[dss]

Agreed. it is killing the Audio Room from both ends is it.

Repeating the same statement in every audio thread is not conducive to a good flow, and you can sort of know what the content is by the name of the poster now.

Call it threadcarpeting and have them out for a month on the 3rd offence, accross all threads. It's the kindest way after all.

DS

p.s. Also can the MDAC have its own forum please, this one seems to have become the default place for order placing, chasing, questions on how to turn it on etc. It is dull.

 

[whatsnext]

Doesn't option B pander to the fundamentalists. It would have to be policed too. Better both sides learn PFM is not for their exclusive use.

 

[Markus S]

Introduce a voucher system, i.e. people can only make certain statements x times a month.

The problem is mainly the evangelical zeal, some people feel an irrepressible urge to save other people from making what they think are erroneous judgements.

 

[martin clark]

I'm on a knife-edge here*.

I'm a long-time member but really, really don't often post in Audio for the very reason articulated in Tony's post - I've no wish to contribute to bunfights, and we do seem to have a lot of them here. And the usual suspects are immune to good old-fashioned common sense either way - it's often a person/ entenched-personality issue as I see it.

And as kasper says, occasionally they're amusing. Mostly, though I suspect they alienate newer members from joining-in what appears to be a bearpit. And without encouraging newer members, the whole hobby is *cough* a legacy issue.

Tony - is it possible to autolock threads in the audio rooms after a certain rate or number of posts, oh say 100 or so? Genuine enquiries tend to provoke thoughtful replies and close themselves quite quickly. Threads which explode at a rate of 6-8pages/day are generally full of sound and fury, and signifying nothing... There are exceptions, but they are rather rare (MDAC is the only recent one).

And while the short-term effect might be an explosion in bunfight-skirmish threads, all Audio room threads drop off the database quickly. Perhaps locked ones can auto-dissappear quicker. Once the usual protagonists get the idea that it's just not possible to have 'the last word' except by pure happenstance they might shut up. Might. I am prepared to play Macchiavelli's Prince if required [*ok, make that a sword-edge ]


One last thought - whatever the fix, the very last thing I'd like to see is such shit-fits subsequently invading into the many other excellent areas of this site, even if inadvertantly. It really is an Audio Room (personality) -only problem.

 

[Bemused]

Well I find it fun to read the experts posts, they are avid and tireless entertainers.

 

[MVV]

Actually Tony I think at the mo do nowt. I think it is evolving in a largely healthy way for the ordinary enthusiast, wot I am. It is certainly better than it was before the (and I hate the term) 'objectivists' arrived. At the moment I'm searching Ebay to find a tuner amp to drive some Kans in the bedroom. I would have burned myself at the stake in the past for even thinking of such a thing!

How about a 'restate the same argument in the same thread and get banned for a month' rule?

 

[hammeredklavier]

Some advantage might attach to an objective discussion room, but the problem you'll have is that hydrogen audio already caters for that. You might consider doing it with a stated aim of being educational perhaps - one of the reasons I still like to use this forum is that there are a lot of very knowledgeable people around, including practising audio engineers, and I've learned a lot from reading what they write. I suspect there're a lot like me, with a technical background but little formal knowledge of audio engineering who are eager for any insights.

Alex

 

[paskinn]

Some philosopher said :
''' Unless at least one thing is certain, nothing else can described as even probable.'

I think he had a point; but I don't know what it was.

 

[Whaleblue]

Limit number of posts per member per room per day?

Might lead to more considered input?

 

[Whaleblue]

Or it might not

 

[arthur]

Would that aup update include the 'listen to this magic USB cable ists' and the Perspex people? And the invasive show advertisers who wax pontifical about the awesomeness of cassette decks and then disappear when the jobs done?

Bit of a single edged sword if not.

 

[whatsnext]

Some advantage might attach to an objective discussion room, but the problem you'll have is that hydrogen audio already caters for that. You might consider doing it with a stated aim of being educational perhaps - one of the reasons I still like to use this forum is that there are a lot of very knowledgeable people around, including practising audio engineers, and I've learned a lot from reading what they write. I suspect there're a lot like me, with a technical background but little formal knowledge of audio engineering who are eager for any insights.

Alex

Seconded. But no room splits.

 

[kasperhauser]

p.s. Also can the MDAC have its own forum please, this one seems to have become the default place for order placing, chasing, questions on how to turn it on etc. It is dull.

I mostly agree, although I found Volume VIII of the thread quite refreshing.*


(*there is no Volume VIII of the thread)

 

[avole]

My feeling is: do nothing. There's heaps of threads that areń t affected by the arguments, only a handful they attract extreme positions from both sides. If a thread gets OTT then stop it. The difficulty is always going to be to have an even handed approach

PFM works better than most forums because of that handed approach. It would be a shame if that were lost

 

[cooky1257]

Most of us are essentially listeners not measurers, enthusiasts not test subjects and are in this hobby for fun so why should subjective opinions suffer this tiresome crapping?

Go with the modified AUP .