The Tory leadership race- that’s quite a bestiary there.

[Brian]

So EU member countries would have to refuse possibly the best person for a job based on where they come from? Bit daft, imo.

It will hurt Britain more than it will hurt the eu, we need their talent pool more than they need ours.

That doesn’t address my point. In fact, it ignores it completely. The point is, why does the EU force such a stupid idea on member states?

 

[Brian]

Brian you are an intelligent logical careful person but you just can't see the wood for the trees. Do you have your own personal opinion of what the EU is ?

I’m not sure what you mean so I can’t reply at present to avoid any suggestion I’m being snide.

 

[tonerei]

That doesn’t address my point. In fact, it ignores it completely. The point is, why does the EU force such a stupid idea on member states?

Eh every country in the world does that. The EU afaik is the only collection of countries that allow citizens from member states to work across states. The stupid idea thingy is the reality and it is one of the drivers for brexiteers. Keeping all the dodgy EU folk from taking their jobs.

I think you are just having a laugh here I sincerely hope your thought process is not really like that?

 

[Brian]

Yes, but fvck them - tory scum and they break/broke promises all the time - why choose to keep one that fvcks the country?
And shame on you for sticking up for a tory project. Gets pretty close to, whats that word...enabling, doesn't it?
If you represent, as you seem to think you do, the labour line, then pass on to them this message, and feel free to accompany them

I don’t represent Labour, nor do I seem to think I do.

Just to say I will stick up for democracy, not the tories. I suggest you think hard about where doing the opposite can lead.

 

[Seanm]

Yes Sean - it isn't that often that we're in agreement but I can go along with that.

We're quite far apart but there are clearly scenarios in which we could work together. It just seems to me that that would be better for the remain cause than demanding total commitment to the cause; that it would be good to say, OK, there is actually a range of positions on the remain side, and we need to determine the common ground, and the priorities of various actors, so that trade-offs can be discussed and misunderstandings avoided - instead of insisting that there is only one remain position.

Glad you are so 'conflicted'. If Remain is a 'hard' position, then guilty. Although I personally don't see how not wanting the UK seriously reduced economically and politically is all that radical but there we are. Coming to terms with the UK's post imperial significance is something that has to be got over and that is painful for some on the right, less so I would have thought on the left.

Remain = not good, because Cameron's hubris has paralysed the UK for 3 years and counting, plus many people were persuaded that a good deal it would be easy, we held all the cards, they needed us more than us them and similar bollox. Plenty of resentment - but at least we might salvage something.

Soft Brexit = very bad, UK worse off. Resentment all round and you don't even get to please anyone.

Hard Brexit = complete disaster. UK very much worse off, would make austerity look like a tea party. All but a few nutters are unhappy.

I don't think remain as such is a "hard" position, but it's clear that people have different priorities even on the remain side - as I say, better all round if that's acknowledged. Other than that - glad to see some pessimism!

 

[Brian]

If you do not have a free movement agreement then any company in Europe that wants to employ someone from the UK will have to prove that there are no suitable applicants from Europe, similarly UK companies will have to do the same, any one wishing to invest may well consider a pool of Europe offers a better chance of skilled employees than the UKs.

Eh every country in the world does that. The EU afaik is the only collection of countries that allow citizens from member states to work across states. The stupid idea thingy is the reality and it is one of the drivers for brexiteers. Keeping all the dodgy EU folk from taking their jobs.

I think you are just having a laugh here I sincerely hope your thought process is not really like that?

I know countries have rules, but just reminding you of what he said above in bold...

Are you saying every country in the world mandates companies prove in every case there are no suitable candidates for a job from their own country before they can employ someone from another country? I honestly wasn’t aware that was a legal requirement everywhere. I still believe it’s a stupid idea. How much cost is involved in proving that for every job?

 

[ff1d1l]

I don’t represent Labour, nor do I seem to think I do.

Just to say I will stick up for democracy, not the tories. I suggest you think hard about where doing the opposite can lead.

Has led.

 

[Brian]

Has led.

It’s not all over until it’s over.

 

[Colin L]

I know countries have rules, but just reminding you of what he said above in bold...

Are you saying every country in the world mandates companies prove in every case there are no suitable candidates for a job from their own country before they can employ someone from another country? I honestly wasn’t aware that was a legal requirement everywhere. I still believe it’s a stupid idea. How much cost is involved in proving that for every job?

Yes that’s a typical requirement EXCEPT for member states of the EU. Freedom of movement don’t you know. The organisation you want to leave.

It seems from your posts there’s a lot of things you aren’t aware of.

 

[davidsrsb]

Are you saying every country in the world mandates companies prove in every case there are no suitable candidates for a job from their own country before they can employ someone from another country? I honestly wasn’t aware that was a legal requirement everywhere. I still believe it’s a stupid idea. How much cost is involved in proving that for every job?

About the only exception I can think of before we joined the EU was Irish citizens and the UK. Apart from the proof costs, most countries charge high fees for work permits for foreigners and don't recognise professional qualifications

 

[andrewd]

I know countries have rules, but just reminding you of what he said above in bold...

Are you saying every country in the world mandates companies prove in every case there are no suitable candidates for a job from their own country before they can employ someone from another country? I honestly wasn’t aware that was a legal requirement everywhere. I still believe it’s a stupid idea. How much cost is involved in proving that for every job?

So angry that my rights and the rights of my family have been removed by people who have got no clue whatsoever.

 

[Brian]

Yes that’s a typical requirement EXCEPT for member states of the EU. Freedom of movement don’t you know. The organisation you want to leave.

It seems from your posts there’s a lot of things you aren’t aware of.

I doubt it. But if it is true all companies have to check whether there is anyone suitable from their own country before employing someone from overseas, then fair enough. I wasn’t aware of that. Can you explain how a company does that?

What else am I not aware of among the ‘lot’ you mention or is that just another of your snide comments?

About the only exception I can think of before we joined the EU was Irish citizens and the UK. Apart from the proof costs, most countries charge high fees for work permits for foreigners and don't recognise professional qualifications

I’m aware of work permits. I’m also aware of professional qualifcations. Blimey, 2 things I’m aware of.

 

[Brian]

So angry that my rights and the rights of my family have been removed by people who have got no clue whatsoever.

Brexit hasn’t happened, what rights have been removed from you and your family? I don’t feel as though my family has lost any, in fact, one of my adult kids works abroad often and is overseas right now. No specific difficulties have been mentioned but I’ll ask.

It was reported from a very early stage in the ‘negotiations’ the UK govt was prepared to confirm EU citizens in the UK would not be ‘booted out’ and I believe would keep their current rights, this was contrary to the scaremongering going on. However, the EU was not prepared to make the same guarantee. Surely that is a problem with the EU side, not the UK side?

 

[TheDecameron]

I saw Frankie Boyle last night. If it’s Brexit, he wants the full Brexit and to be able to see the faces of the people who voted for it when the full effects land. It’s a position I have some sympathy with.

 

[Colin L]

I doubt it. But if it is true all companies have to check whether there are anyone suitable from their own country before employing someone from overseas, then fair enough. I wasn’t aware of that. Can you explain how a company does that?

What else am I not aware of among the ‘lot’ you mention or is that just another of your snide comments?


I’m aware of work permits. I’m also aware of professional qualifcations. Blimey, 2 things I’m aware of.

I have lived and worked in several non-EU countries. To get a residence and/or work visa you have to meet the government requirements. Typically they assess your qualifications, the country requirements for that position and the availability of local people to fill the position. Without a visa the company can’t employ you.

Your posts, confidently demonstrate a staggering lack of awareness of how the world works. Brexit writ large unfortunately.

 

[stephen bennett]

How about 'collaborative remainers' (i.e. Hunt), rather than the rather patronising 'hard remainers' if you must use such epithets?

Brian, when we leave the EU all our right to free movement and those rights (health, property ownership, right to work etc.) will be removed.

As we know these are going to be removed, people have stopped moving to and from the UK. It matters not a jot we haven't left the EU. In the same fashion, EU funding bodies that are not allowing the UK to participate now as we will be out before the projects end and there's too much uncertainty. I have direct evidence of this happening.

This is the reality of Brexit.

Stephen

 

[stephen bennett]

Patel is back on Radio 4 spouting nonsense that she knows more about the WTO and GATT 24 than the experts in this field.

She is really a Minford disciple and wants us to apply zero tariffs (in the hope the EU will follow suite), which ignores the fact that if we do (and the EU does) we'll have to open all or borders to zero tariffs. There's no way the EU would do this and if we do unilaterally, bye bye agriculture and manufacturing.

Even the 'Canada-style' free trade deal espoused by Patel and Johnson ignores the just-in-time supply chains and services.

She'll be back in Government in August. Misconduct in public office is obviously no barr to high office these days. See the Disgraced Liam Fox.

Stephen

 

[MVV]

The reality, brilliantly illustrated by Brian, is that the majority of leavers voted for something they literally didn't know very much about informed by the likes of the Mail banging on about immigration and straight bananas and opportunist politicians using the situation to position themselves for future leadership opportunities.
For me the greatest irony is that in the end it was just a stupid mistake that no-one dare own up to. I will never forget the look on Johnson and Gove's faces when they realised they'd burnt the house down.

 

[TheDecameron]

Patel is back on Radio 4 spouting nonsense that she knows more about the WTO and GATT 24 than the experts in this field.

She is really a Minford disciple and wants us to apply zero tariffs (in the hope the EU will follow suite), which ignores the fact that if we do (and the EU does) we'll have to open all or borders to zero tariffs. There's no way the EU would do this and if we do unilaterally, bye bye agriculture and manufacturing.

Even the 'Canada-style' free trade deal espoused by Patel and Johnson ignores the just-in-time supply chains and services.

She'll be back in Government in August. Misconduct in public office is obviously no barr to high office these days. See the Disgraced Liam Fox.

Stephen

She’s also thicker than a long ton of short planks. She makes Esther McVey sound like Isaiah Berlin.

 

[MVV]

I'm not sure that Johnson won't try to lose this. He must be conflicted. Personally I hope his narcissism and arrogance carries him through to 'victory'.
The bit I don't get is Hunt, mad staring eyes but seems bright enough, if I was him I'd pull out. Gove must be chipper.