The Ten Biggest Lies in Audio

[dave]

Er Brian, it's a very common argument used when trying to prove the existance of god...

You need to read more...

I don't believe in a supreme being either but it's entirely possible an astronaut ejected a tea pot from the Apollo Command module as a joke while orbiting Earth so...

everything has an explanation and is measurable. You and I may not have the knowledge however.

 

[mmaatt]

Neither do I. Nor do I believe in magic.

That's why I live my life according to the experiential (senses) not by theory or faith. Of course the latter two have their place in our attempts to make sense of the world and organise what we experience.

mat

 

[darrylfunk]

some music itself has been described as 'organised experiences'

 

[James]

I bought all my kit on the basis of specs. I've never chosen anything by first listening.

I bet you choose your car by specs too, huh?

I prefer to choose by the seat of my pants. Oh, and colour choices too. I'm particularly about my shades of grey.

James

 

[avole]

I bet you choose your car by specs too, huh?

I prefer to choose by the seat of my pants. Oh, and colour choices too. I'm particularly about my shades of grey.

James

The analogy would work with musical instruments, but not with HiFi. HiFi is essentially a passive hobby, whereas driving is, one hopes, not.

 

[Blzebub]

Smug, self-satisfied crap!

There are many, many people in this world who have no choice. Its called poverty. Are you superior to them?

Poor people make their own choices, too. Everybody does. Am I superior to them, how?

 

[avole]

You mean they choose to be poor? That answers my question, then.

 

[PsB]

The power quoted is RMS, but given the duty cycle in music, some quote twice that, which would be the peaks. Distortion is what you get while you're playing music, so not fudged. They won't give 250 Watts into a resistor but they will give 500 Watt peaks playing music, which equates to 110dB@1 M both driven with sub and about 10dB more for peaks.

Ooooh, peak watts! I love it! This really takes us back to the good ole days of the 70s. The rest was extremely informative, too.

(Serge, while you're on here educating us about measurements, could you please do us all a favour and have a private session with Ashley? He needs your help on how to write a spec properly. The sort of spec that will enable discerning punters to buy without listening.)

 

[Blzebub]

You mean they choose to be poor? That answers my question, then.

Jolly good.

 

[Ashley James]

Ooooh, peak watts! I love it! This really takes us back to the good ole days of the 70s. The rest was extremely informative, too.

(Serge, while you're on here educating us about measurements, could you please do us all a favour and have a private session with Ashley? He needs your help on how to write a spec properly. The sort of spec that will enable discerning punters to buy without listening.)

If you display music on a scope, you'll find that it is a succession of instantaneous peaks which together with the continuous requirement amount to less than one Watt. As Watts are an energy time measurement (1 Watt = 1 Joul per second) volts would be better but I was asked for an explanation of Watts and I gave one that explains precisely what you will hear and how loud it will be. Very! if it helps.

As for buying without listening, that's what probably over 90% of our customers have done and they are all over the world, so no problem here either.

Ash

 

[Tony L]

but I was asked for an explanation of Watts and I gave one that explains precisely what you will hear and how loud it will be. Very! if it helps.

I asked very specifically whether the quoted spec on your website was RMS or peak - I well understand the difference between these two things, as will the overwhelming majority of readers here.

 

[Ashley James]

I don't think they do with active speakers, in fact I'm not sure RMS power is a very useful figure if we're relating it to the duty cycle of music.

Music comprises of a continuous level (at average listening volumes) of less than a Watt. If you listen at 80 dB and your speakers are 87 dB/W/M, then average power consumption is 0.25 Watts, but peaks can be enormous and amount to several hundred Watts, but still average consumption is perhaps only 10 or more. Therefore you don't really want a high RMS wattage because it is expensive and you can't use it all. Even if you turn up the volume, the peaks will clip the amp long before you approach max RMS power.

It's a bit difference with stand alone power amplifiers because designers don't know what they'll be connected to and has to build in a safety margin. It makes them very much more expensive than you can have much more vital headroom for in active speakers.

Ash

 

[Tony L]

I don't think they do with active speakers, in fact I'm not sure RMS power is a very useful figure if we're relating it to the duty cycle of music.

I agree with you from a practical point of view, but when your advertising relies so heavily on both claiming your product is "more powerful" than a competitors and also on giving an impression of scientific rigour and objectivity then it is only wise to find a level playing field from which to properly assess these claims. I'm not for a second implying that your speakers don't have more than enough power for the purpose in hand, I am certain they do, I'm just ensuring we compare apples with apples, not with oranges. FWIW most pro-audio speaker manufacturers seem to quote both a peak and a continuous / RMS rating.

 

[Robert]

Rob,


I'm downloading the Squeezebox files now to give them a listen. (I hadn't been following that thread, so thanks for pointing it out.)



Trying a Squeezebox-type test with CD players would be enlightening. Are you up for it?



I'm more than a bit incredulous that the difference between a good "high-end" player and a mass market one is simply down to a bit of response shaping.

When I've compared CD players I've heard little difference between them tonally. It's the other stuff I'm talking about — a sense of pace, dynamics, detail, etc. That said, I don't find differences between CD players to be as fundamental and as large as those between turntables. I've yet to hear something along the lines of Rega P9 vs Sota Sapphire kind of differences in presentation.

Joe

I'm intending to put up some files at the weekend presenting some alternatives to a CD rip.

With regard to things like pace, detail, space etc, I think that those are largely driven by the response with CD players and dacs where such differences really exist.
A little top end lift can seemingly improve detail and air, while bolstering the bottom end can alter the perception of PRaT.
However the biggest factor in most cases remains the badge.

I would only apply the 'don't bother to listen' rule to electronics where the spec is solid. Vinyl front end components and loudspeakers are far more compromised and therefore listening is essential IMO. Thats partly because the specs and measurements for them are often woefully inadequate.
At best you get a response and separation plot for a cartridge which might look all fine and dandy. But whats it like tracing inner grooves?
Distortion is always high with cartridges, but how high and what is the content?
TTs will usually give a basic speed stability spec but how does a particular model reject feedback, and given a lot of energy passes into the TT structures, what happens to the energy?
These and many other things don't get measured but alter the sonics to a considerable degree.
The measurement model required to develop a reasonable picture of these and other analogue components is complex.

An amplifier or dac is very different as is the required measurement model. The task is simple. Comparisons to a known reference are also simple and any deviation easily detected.

In instances where specs and measurements are inadequate, and you are in a comparative dem situation, use a blind listening test.

 

[Errol]

True, but knowledge is hidden for proprietary reasons. It's done all the time.

I've seen inter-office memos and build documents which indicate exact spacing between tie wraps and connectors for reasons of sound quality on amp wiring looms. R&D didn't specify this for marketing reasons on internal documents nor was it broadcast to the general public.

True, a very succesful manufacturer of audio explained to me how the mechanics of equipment assembly was of vital importance in maintaining sound quality, a bit to much torque on a output transistor for instance could change the sound between examples of the same amp.
Errol.

 

[Errol]

In instances where specs and measurements are inadequate, and you are in a comparative dem situation, use a blind listening test.

Or you could always just listen without the blindfold, in your own home, connected to your own system, in your own good time.
Errol.

 

[naimplayer]

Ooooh, peak watts! I love it! This really takes us back to the good ole days of the 70s. The rest was extremely informative, too.

(Serge, while you're on here educating us about measurements, could you please do us all a favour and have a private session with Ashley? He needs your help on how to write a spec properly. The sort of spec that will enable discerning punters to buy without listening.)

Would that be the Comprehensive Spec which would enable the discerning punter to own without listening as well?

 

[bob atherton]

I’ve just read this thread through from the top again and I’m left with a slight feeling of disbelief.

Are some people here really saying that one would be in possession of all marbles if most hi-fi components were bought purely on the specifications of the components?

If this is the case, and I had to read the whole thread again to make sure, then I am indeed in disbelief.

Are these people that are advocating a purely specification based purchase really saying that all pieces of kit that read the same will sound the same? I’m sure we have all heard many systems that range from a perception of listening from the 20th row in an overly dampened acoustic to ones that put you at the front row with an acoustic more live than your average Pizza Express.

Are these two systems really going to have such different specifications that the ‘knowledgeable’ purchaser will really have any idea how they might sound? Surly the true knowledgeable purchaser is the music lover who knows how they like their music presented? I live in Bristol and my favourite venue is St Georges on Brandon Hill; a smallish converted chapel that has the most wonderful acoustics IMHO. Could I tell you if any of the audible frequencies at St Georges are reduced or enhanced because of the architecture, flooring, and fabric on the seats? No, I just know that for my ears and emotional part of my brain it works a treat.

Why should most people know, or be in the least interested for that matter, about the THD or whatever of an amplifier, I know I don’t.
I think specification are useful to get one into the ball park and maybe to put together a short list, but surely listening to the system, ideally in ones own home, has to be the no brainer?

 

[Ashley James]

I agree with you from a practical point of view, but when your advertising relies so heavily on both claiming your product is "more powerful" than a competitors and also on giving an impression of scientific rigour and objectivity then it is only wise to find a level playing field from which to properly assess these claims. I'm not for a second implying that your speakers don't have more than enough power for the purpose in hand, I am certain they do, I'm just ensuring we compare apples with apples, not with oranges. FWIW most pro-audio speaker manufacturers seem to quote both a peak and a continuous / RMS rating.

Tone

There barely is a pro audio industry now and most pro gear is sold to amateurs, a lot more amateurs than in hi fi, which is why there is a city called Behringer that makes, amongst many other things, 50,000 mixing consoles a month.

As far as our claims go, they are, as they always have been, conservative. As for the rest, some are spot on and loads are exaggerated ridiculously.

You also need to remember that there is no distributor margin and only a modest dealer one in our products, so they cost about 1/3rd of what they would otherwise. And our production methods are bang up to date, so cost effective an utterly reliable product.

Ash

 

[Mescalito]

Mine has plenty of emotional impact - one of the reasons I enjoy listening to it so much. It really conveys the energy and emotion of a performance.

Music is more art than science.

Absolutely. But hi fi is pure science & engineering. It is the job of the hi fi to accurately convey the passion of the performance. Not to enhance it. If it does enhance it, it's not good hi fi.

Chris