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Streaming

DNM said:
On the contrary, I desire information as to why jitter from a streamer matters to a DAC that re-samples the data using its own internal clock. Maybe you can tell me?
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No, I think you think you are right and just want to be proven so.

I don't know why it is expected that a hi-fi dealer should have practically PhD Physics level of knowledge of digital signal transfer and resampling and clocking etc.

I don't expect any dealer to know more about this than the manufacturer tells them and to base their opinion of whether it is bullshit or not on the actual sound of the units not by doing a white paper of the theoretical potential of lowering phase noise at lower frequencies by 17mHu.

.sjb
 
Sorry if I am continuing to drag this thread of course, but I have found it very interesting!

I have been confused for a long time about how important the digital source is for streaming. I understand that if a qualify DAC is used, then a PC is probably the best value choice.

Personally, I have both a Naim streamer and a few sonos connects. For my main system, I currently use the sonos for streaming as I love the quality of the software and find the sound just about acceptable. My plan is to add a Chord 2qute or possibly a cutest. I had assumed that I’d need to dump the Sonos Connect at the same time and go for a dedicated pc, but this thread has got me thinking. In terms of digital signal quality, how does a PC compare to a Pi 3, to the Sonos Connect or to the Aries mini?

Thanks,

Rob
 
Sloop John B said:
I don't expect any dealer to know more about this than the manufacturer tells them and to base their opinion of whether it is bullshit or not on the actual sound of the units not by doing a white paper of the theoretical potential of lowering phase noise at lower frequencies by 17mHu.
Click to expand...

If a dealer makes comments on a public forum about products he has commercial interest in, innocent or otherwise, that are more grounded in opaque marketing claims than technical reality, then why is it wrong to try to discuss the validity of those comments? If you don't choose to understand how computer audio works, thats your prerogative, as I believe it's mine as a consumer to try to learn and understand and avoid being hoodwinked.
 
Nothing wrong with discussion but your tone didn’t seem very discursive to me.

Lee seems a decent bloke being pestered by people with perhaps a pico quanta more knowledge than him.

State what you know, let us all learn and stop these circular arguments.

.sjb
 
Stereoasishead said:
My plan is to add a Chord 2qute or possibly a cutest. I had assumed that I’d need to dump the Sonos Connect at the same time and go for a dedicated pc, but this thread has got me thinking. In terms of digital signal quality, how does a PC compare to a Pi 3, to the Sonos Connect or to the Aries mini?
Click to expand...

A Chord 2Qute or the new Qutest would be a good choice for PC's as they have Asynchronous USB where the DAC is in control of clocking the data stream and they're also galvanically isolated from electrical noise. A PC or NUC will give you a much greater choice of software and DSP, if you ever wanted to venture there.

I initially fed a 2Qute from a Naim then realised it sounded the same fed by a £100 CuBox.

Aries mini looks like a good sensibly priced product for streaming and or/DAC, if you're happy with the user interface.

Plenty of people have moved to Pi's realising they perform just as well as anything else into well engineered DAC's, but there are quite a few boards (Hats) to choose from. I'm using a Pi/Allo Digione combo on the network rendering Roon from an iMac and it works very well. Its Spdif (Coax) only though.
 
Stereoasishead said:
Sorry if I am continuing to drag this thread of course, but I have found it very interesting!

I have been confused for a long time about how important the digital source is for streaming. I understand that if a qualify DAC is used, then a PC is probably the best value choice.
Click to expand...

I do not think it is quite that clear cut. It also depends on which input you use and how the DAC handles the input signal. In the case of the Qute2 or Qutest with their asynchronous USB inputs, the DAC is likely to be the limiting factor and the quality of the source becomes less important, although by no means irrelevant. A PC is certainly the most versatile option, but if you just want to play music, I would argue that there are better value options available.

Stereoasishead said:
Personally, I have both a Naim streamer and a few sonos connects. For my main system, I currently use the sonos for streaming as I love the quality of the software and find the sound just about acceptable. My plan is to add a Chord 2qute or possibly a cutest. I had assumed that I’d need to dump the Sonos Connect at the same time and go for a dedicated pc, but this thread has got me thinking. In terms of digital signal quality, how does a PC compare to a Pi 3, to the Sonos Connect or to the Aries mini?

Thanks,

Rob
Click to expand...

With a PC you have a myriad of hardware options which can affect performance, but can I assume here that we are talking about an ordinary home desktop or laptop PC and not hardware which has been specially optimised for audio? The Pi has hardware options too, but these are a little more limited and none of the ones I know of are super expensive. Both of these platforms can run a variety of software. The software and configuration options you choose will also affect sound quality.

Nevertheless, in order of their potential with the 2Qute and probably the Qutest too (although actually I have not had the new model here yet), I would rank them as follows...

Auralic Aries Mini (via USB)
Pi 3 (via USB)
PC (via USB)
Sonos Connect (via S/PDIF coax or optical)

If you are seriously considering swapping your Sonos Connect for something else, then you should also have a look at the Bluesound range. The Node 2 has very similar features to the Sonos Connect but with considerably better sound quality. The Vault 2 does everything that a Node 2 can and adds CD ripping and server capabilities. Like Sonos, Bluesound also offers a range of speakers plus a soundbar and subwoofer which you can use to build a multi-room system.
 
I've been considering setting up a Pi 2(no bluetooth/wifi - hence less noise onboard) powered with a linear supply, with Allo digione via SPDIF(thought the Pi USB was not supposed to be that great?) into my 2Qute.
Cost around £250, compares with Aries £400 which I know is a nice tidy box and decent software (but more like £700 with decent PSU)

My concern is this would sound exactly the same as using either a PC, CCA, or Pioneer N50 (all of which I have tried) in front of the 2Qute....if that is the case then £250 or £700 is still perhaps wasted £££.
 
Don’t lost sight of comparing how you would use the proposed set up. How good are the apps for remote control? What facilities do you have for organising your music the way you like to see it? How easy is it to edit metadata? How do streaming services fit in? For example if you happen to like Qobuz then you might want to know there is no nice remote control app for it if you use a pc. If you use a mac, you can use Audirvana+. The Bluesound and Innuos streamers have their own apps. Can either of them make a playlist mixing your own music, Qobuz tracks and Tidal tracks, should you want to? Does the Linn ecosystem do a better job? Though it doesn’t do roon if you want to go that way. Is MQA important to you? Then a pc is limited. If you use Spotify, then you won’t get hires Qobuz. Loads of issues to navigate through.
 
Moppit said:
I've been considering setting up a Pi 2(no bluetooth/wifi - hence less noise onboard) powered with a linear supply, with Allo digione via SPDIF(thought the Pi USB was not supposed to be that great?) into my 2Qute.
Cost around £250, compares with Aries £400 which I know is a nice tidy box and decent software (but more like £700 with decent PSU)

My concern is this would sound exactly the same as using either a PC, CCA, or Pioneer N50 (all of which I have tried) in front of the 2Qute....if that is the case then £250 or £700 is still perhaps wasted £££.
Click to expand...

If your PC, Chromecast Audio and Pioneer N50 all sound the same to you, and you have no other reason to switch streamer, then I would look at the rest of the system to see if there is a better way to invest that cash.

Remember to factor in the time it takes to build, optimise and maintain the Pi setup. For some people this will be a fun part of the experience. Others may prefer listening to music.
 
Moppit said:
I've been considering setting up a Pi 2(no bluetooth/wifi - hence less noise onboard) powered with a linear supply, with Allo digione via SPDIF(thought the Pi USB was not supposed to be that great?) into my 2Qute.
Cost around £250, compares with Aries £400 which I know is a nice tidy box and decent software (but more like £700 with decent PSU)

My concern is this would sound exactly the same as using either a PC, CCA, or Pioneer N50 (all of which I have tried) in front of the 2Qute....if that is the case then £250 or £700 is still perhaps wasted £££.
Click to expand...
The best SQ I've heard from a pi into my MDAC was from a pi2 with a hifiberry digi+ pro spdif board, with isolation, and an iFi PSU...I think the digione is supposed to top the hifiberry.

I normally use a SBTouch, via USB with a significant amount of iFi isolation in the path (iUSB 3 mini), were I to start again I'd probably go the pi2/spdif route...
 
Strictly Stereo said:
If your PC, Chromecast Audio and Pioneer N50 all sound the same to you, and you have no other reason to switch streamer, then I would look at the rest of the system to see if there is a better way to invest that cash.

Remember to factor in the time it takes to build, optimise and maintain the Pi setup. For some people this will be a fun part of the experience. Others may prefer listening to music.
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The time taken to build and maintain a Pi set up is really very little. To me it is well worth the effort for the vfm you get. I run PiCoreplayer on mine. Very easy to set up and maintain and sound quality easily matches other more mainstream offerings. Plenty of time to listen to music
 
Well this thread has got a bit off track at points, but it has got another dinosaur (me) somewhat intrigued by some of the possibilities of streaming. It is really the Bluesoud Vault 2that has sparked my interest as it has ripping and a high res capable dac built in which the Innos does not. I would want to connect it to my main systems pre amp, I don't see it as competing with the quality of my main sources here, but it would be a worthwhile addition. I really see it as a core to a second system that could serve some of my CD's I could rip, as well as stream internet radio, and this system does not have to be as high quality. So a few questions that perhaps someone can answer?

I see the vault has Bluetooth and a headphone socket. Can I wirelessly connect a pair of Bluetooth headphones to the vault or do headphones only work wire connected to the output socket?

For a system in another room all I would need is a pair of the Pulseflex Bluesound speakers that would link to the vault (I could do this by Ethernet if better more stable)? Are these £299 a pair or each?

If I want to add another speaker for use in the summerhouse I could also just connect this wirelessly to the vault as well (no Ethernet here, but a reasonable signal from the router)? Or I suppose move one of the speakers? I would only want one speaker here so can they be switched to mono?
 
poco a poco said:
Well this thread has got a bit off track at points, but it has got another dinosaur (me) somewhat intrigued by some of the possibilities of streaming. It is really the Bluesoud Vault 2that has sparked my interest as it has ripping and a high res capable dac built in which the Innos does not. I would want to connect it to my main systems pre amp, I don't see it as competing with the quality of my main sources here, but it would be a worthwhile addition. I really see it as a core to a second system that could serve some of my CD's I could rip, as well as stream internet radio, and this system does not have to be as high quality. So a few questions that perhaps someone can answer?

I see the vault has Bluetooth and a headphone socket. Can I wirelessly connect a pair of Bluetooth headphones to the vault or do headphones only work wire connected to the output socket?
Click to expand...

No, only wired headphones are supported. The Bluetooth feature is an extra input for casual use streaming from a phone, tablet etc.

poco a poco said:
For a system in another room all I would need is a pair of the Pulseflex Bluesound speakers that would link to the vault (I could do this by Ethernet if better more stable)? Are these £299 a pair or each?
Click to expand...

You can use a single Pulse Flex or connect a pair for stereo. They cost £299 each or £598 for a pair. They connect to your home network via wired Ethernet of WiFi. Wired Ethernet will always be more stable, but we have yet to encounter a problem streaming CD rips over WiFi.

poco a poco said:
If I want to add another speaker for use in the summerhouse I could also just connect this wirelessly to the vault as well (no Ethernet here, but a reasonable signal from the router)? Or I suppose move one of the speakers? I would only want one speaker here so can they be switched to mono?
Click to expand...

Yes, absolutely. Bluesound also offers an optional battery pack for the Pulse Flex, in case you do not have mains power to your summerhouse.
 
Many thanks for your reply. Pity about the headphones not working via Bluetooth, but I do have a pair of Sony wireless headphones MDF RF800R that I could use, but these are not as high quality as the Bluetooth phones I was considering.

Still the rest seems promising so I will give it serious consideration.
 
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