Streaming

[Strictly Stereo]

Does the Innuos Zen Mini support streaming services such as Tidal, Qobuz, Apple Music and roon?

It supports TIDAL, Qobuz and Spotify, but not Apple Music (at least not yet). If you have a Roon subscription then you can use it as a Roon Ready endpoint or as a Roon Core server.

 

[DNM]

there’s no obvious desire for information shown, just a desire to point score and win an argument.

On the contrary, I desire information as to why jitter from a streamer matters to a DAC that re-samples the data using its own internal clock. Maybe you can tell me?

 

[Cereal Killer]

Simple answer it would make life easier on the DACs clock.

 

[Strictly Stereo]

On the contrary, I desire information as to why jitter from a streamer matters to a DAC that re-samples the data using its own internal clock. Maybe you can tell me?

This seems to be moving further and further away from the original poster's question. Give me a call. I would be happy to continue this discussion offline. We can discuss specific products in detail and I can avoid being dragged into making sweeping statements which may not apply to every other product which works in a superficially similar way. I would be happy to hear your own opinions on the subject too.

 

[DNM]

I would be happy to continue this discussion offline.

I'm sure you would.

We can discuss specific products in detail and I can avoid being dragged into making sweeping statements which may not apply to every other product which works in a superficially similar way. I would be happy to hear your own opinions on the subject too.

I don't think it was me that dragged you into making the sweeping statement about high end dac's almost certainly benefiting from Auralic's.

 

[DNM]

Simple answer it would make life easier on the DACs clock.

The sending clock is isolated and the DAC clocks the data, for better or worse.

 

[Cereal Killer]

DNM, what’s your point of question, are you inferring the streamers clock is irrelevant?

 

[AndyU]

On the contrary, I desire information as to why jitter from a streamer matters to a DAC that re-samples the data using its own internal clock. Maybe you can tell me?

I’m not sure that most DACs do resample the data. A DAC that uses ASRC, like a Benchmark, does resample to a higher fixed clock frequency, but I think most DACs use a PLL to track the clock frequency of the input signal and smooth it out as far as possible. A PLL means the DAC is continuously gradually altering its own clock frequency so as not to get ahead or behind the incoming clock. In the nature of things some DACs will be better at this than others - some will be more influenced by the variablity of the clock in the s/pdif than others. At the extreme, an MDAC, for example, can completely give up the ghost with an Apple Airport Express - the MDAC has a tight tolerance and the Apple clock leaps about all over the place. DACs with asynchronous USB inputs can have a fixed internal clock, as can streamers like the Linn DS, or even the modest Squeezebox Touch for they control the rate of the incoming data to suit. Anyhow, it you have a DAC with not very good jitter suppression it is perfectly reasonable to suppose that it might be less upset by a more stable source.

 

[Alex S]

Therein lies an interesting question: how bad does your DAC need to be to require a femto stabilised Auralic input, and conversely, how good does your DAC need to be to be able to deal with a noisy, jittery Mac Mini, for example?

 

[Purité Audio]

I haven’t heard PLLs mentioned for years, phase locked loops were used if I remember correctly to ensure that the DACs buffer never emptied or overflowed , a way or ‘marrying ‘ the timing signal contained within the s/pdif with the DACs own clock.
Async USB did away with all that, as to ‘femto’ clocks looks good in marketing brochures I suppose.
Keith

 

[AndyU]

I haven’t heard PLLs mentioned for years, phase locked loops were used if I remember correctly to ensure that the DACs buffer never emptied or overflowed , a way or ‘marrying ‘ the timing signal contained within the s/pdif with the DACs own clock.
Async USB did away with all that, as to ‘femto’ clocks looks good in marketing brochures I suppose.
Keith

I thought Stereo Stereo was takking about the s/pdif output of the streamer - he mentioned using it to advantage with the Dutch and Dutch 8cs, which don’t have a USB input. I am pretty sure that the majority of the spdif inputs in current DACs still use PLLs, and the rest use ASRC like the Benchmark. Don’t know which Dutch and Dutch use. USB has potentially different issues, not the least of which is a connection to a computer that has levels of noise so high there is legislation to restrict them.

 

[Strictly Stereo]

I thought Stereo Stereo was takking about the s/pdif output of the streamer - he mentioned using it to advantage with the Dutch and Dutch 8cs, which don’t have a USB input. I am pretty sure that the majority of the spdif inputs in current DACs still use PLLs, and the rest use ASRC like the Benchmark. Don’t know which Dutch and Dutch use. USB has potentially different issues, not the least of which is a connection to a computer that has levels of noise so high there is legislation to restrict them.

I was attempting to answering a question about whether or not the pricier Auralic streamers are worth the extra investment over the entry level Aries Mini, when partnered with a high end DAC. I do not believe this question has a simple yes or no answer. It really depends on which DAC and connection method you choose.

Is there a "need" to spend more? That will always be a subjective judgement and there are a lot of variables to consider, but your high end DAC will almost certainly react positively to the very low noise, very low jitter output you get from the higher end Aries and Aries G2 models. The results will vary depending on the DAC design and the connection method, but this is only ever going to have a positive effect. You can get incredible results from the higher end Auralic streamers with a relatively modest DAC. If you use an asynchronous USB connection to your DAC, you place a much greater dependency on the clock inside the DAC. The very accurate clocks inside the Aries and Aries G2 will certainly not do any harm, but you might not get their full benefit.

I normally carry an Aries Mini with me when I travel to demos, mostly because it is small enough to fit in a jacket pocket. It sounds superb. However, I do know that very highly resolving products like the Dutch & Dutch 8c sound clearly better when used with the Aries and Aries G2. I say, try it for yourself. If you cannot hear an improvement, hang on to your cash. If anyone has questions about how one of these products might (or might not) improve their existing system, please feel free to contact me.

Since then we seem to have gone off at a tangent.

 

[Cereal Killer]

I read that too Andy. Lee, can you expand on why the D&D 8C's benefit from a higher end streamer, opposed to something like the Aires Mini and there G2 (IIRC)?

 

[AndyU]

I was attempting to answering a question about whether or not the pricier Auralic streamers are worth the extra investment over the entry level Aries Mini, when partnered with a high end DAC. I do not believe this question has a simple yes or no answer. It really depends on which DAC and connection method you choose.

I was trying to agree with you. I would probably want to argue that the better the DAC, the less important the streamer should be ideally.

Of course, if you combine streamer and DAC, as in the Linn DS Or Squeezebox Touch there are no such issues. The streamer can have a nice big buffer full of data and the DAC bit of the streamer can clock that out under the control of a fixed frequency clock. No PLL. No ASRC. In principle, the lowest jitter (aka uncertainty). But I dare say there’s many a slip..

 

[Strictly Stereo]

I was trying to agree with you.

Thank you. I got that. This is the second time this has happened recently. I am starting to feeling a little uncomfortable.

 

[AndyU]

Thank you. I got that. This is the second time this has happened recently. I am starting to feeling a little uncomfortable.

I just feel so sorry for you trying to compete for sales with Purite Audio. Everyone knows he has a monopoly on good hi-fi and knows so much about everything that until quite recently Stephen Hawking phoned him for advice. Just be grateful for the few crumbs you get.

 

[Strictly Stereo]

I read that too Andy. Lee, can you expand on why the D&D 8C's benefit from a higher end streamer, opposed to something like the Aires Mini and there G2 (IIRC)?

I am not sure that I can offer you a definitive answer. I know that the Aries is designed for low noise and low jitter and that the Aries G2 is designed to perform even better in these areas. I cannot say for certain that this is where the differences come from, but I do know that Auralic puts a lot of effort into these areas. However, with the Dutch & Dutch 8c, there is another wrinkle to complicate things. The 8c has an AES input which I can connect directly to the AES outputs on the Aries and Aries G2. The Aries Mini only has a coax RCA output. Therefore, I have to use a 75-110 Ohm impedance transformer between the output on the Aries Mini and the input 8c. This is a passive component made by Neutrik. It is of good quality for a device of its type, but I cannot say for certain that it has no effect at all on the sound.

I do hear a difference between the Aries and the Aries G2 though, neither of which requires the transformer.

 

[HarryB]

I just feel so sorry for you trying to compete for sales with Purite Audio. Everyone knows he has a monopoly on good hi-fi and knows so much about everything that until quite recently Stephen Hawking phoned him for advice. Just be grateful for the few crumbs you get.

It's true. Hawking was told that any 'competently designed' wheelchair would be fine as they all sound the same.

 

[DNM]

I’m not sure that most DACs do resample the data.

I didn't say most DAC's. I said those that re-sample/clock, i.e. use ASRC which Benchmark have been doing since 2005 and CA were doing with the DacMagic around the same time iirc.

More sophisticated PLL's like the Chord Dave, (not sure about the others) use a buffer then the FPGA clocks the data out of the buffer.

USB has potentially different issues

I was trying to stick to jitter, not noise, because the Femto clock is a big part of the Auralic's sales pitch. Anyhow, Asynchronous USB is controlled by the DAC's clock, not the computer/streamer so the Femto clock is irrelevant. As for computer noise, sure if you use an old computer into a DAC that doesn't isolate the noise expect problems. The latest computers however increasingly use the type of switching reg noise cancelling chips found in smart phones, so its gradually becoming a non issue, especially for a decent galvanically DAC.

 

[DNM]

DNM, what’s your point of question, are you inferring the streamers clock is irrelevant?

With a DAC that uses an ASRC and/or Asynchronous USB, yes, as long as the data is bit perfect.