Streaming

[Strictly Stereo]

The motor industry analogy was purely to illustrate the importance placed on Benchmark Measurements. 'Jitter', in the case of audio and '0-60' in the case of cars. Both equally opaque when it comes to determining real-world performance IME.

In that case, why bring up benchmark measurements? I have a different view. Such figures provide important clues about how products perform. Taken in isolation, a car's 0-60 time or a streamer's clock precision is rather one-dimensional, but all of the car and hifi equipment manufacturers I know of actually publish a variety of different specs. What is difficult to determine from the specs is whether or not you will enjoy the product, but you would not buy a car without a test drive, would you?

So the clocks in the Auralic £3,900 streamer are accurate to within 72 femtoseconds according to who's published figures?

According to Auralic's figures, although I expect they got the figure from the manufacturer of the clocks.

I'm curious as to where you've answered my other questions?

With the exception of the "does Auralic have a monopoly on low jitter" question, which I took to be rhetorical, all of your points are addressed in posts #63 and #68 in this thread. Before you respond, consider the vast array of different design choices and priorities that make up the current DAC and streamer markets, taking into account all of the other variables which might conceivably influence sound quality. I do not believe that these are adequately captured in the two examples I offered or the three/four examples you offered.

 

[raysablade]

Yes the Chromecast Audio is cheap - but it does not have a USB out connection for an async USB DAC! Just spend the few hundred on a box higher up the audio scale to get the connections you would need to. Incidently, the advantage the BS has over the Mini is negated a little because the BS does not have USB out.

I don't think the advantages of a direct i2s connection between any digital source and it's DAC can be overstated. That's the technology that the OP is used to in his CDP. It amazes me how much cost and complexity people willing to tolerate to overcome the issues associated with usb connections. If the OP wants to dip his toe in the water the DAC on the Chromecast is entirely competent and issue free.

I have a spare CCA sitting on the desk with me now i'm happy to send it to him for free.

 

[Cereal Killer]

I was thinking about going for the Naim Star but now I'm not so sure.

Will the Naim sound that much better?

That much better than what?

 

[Strictly Stereo]

Good to know. I have circa 2 thousnd CD's so the thought of ripping them all is filling me with dread.

The Vault 2 does sound ideal and the price is very attractive too.
I was thinking about going for the Naim Star but now I'm not so sure.

Will the Naim sound that much better?

That rather depends on what amplifier you partner with the Vault 2.

 

[simon g]

Good to know. I have circa 2 thousnd CD's so the thought of ripping them all is filling me with dread.

The Vault 2 does sound ideal and the price is very attractive too.
I was thinking about going for the Naim Star but now I'm not so sure.

Will the Naim sound that much better?

The Naim Star has an inbuilt amplifier plus many other features that the Bluesound Vault 2 doesn't have. You'll need to connect the Vault to an amplifier, if you hadn't realised that? They are not really comparable products at all. the Star is an all in one CD/Ripper/streamer/DAC/amp. The Vault isn't.

 

[Joe]

The clocks used in the Aries G2 are accurate to within 72 femtoseconds, according to published figures. This is considerably more accurate than most atomic clocks.

.

I love threads like these... they are always good for a giggle.

 

[Cereal Killer]

BLACKMASS, can you describe how the full system will be setup and how you envisage using it?

I've been through many streaming system permeabilities over the last 10 years or so, so maybe able to help streamline (pun intended) the end goal.

 

[Del monaco]

The Chromecast, Airport Express and IPhone are good entries into the wold of CA. Many use a laptop with its various software possibilities.Theres also the venerable Vortexbox. From there it’s either the exciting geekdom of discovery with the Pi or any of the pre- built plug an play options, including CA, Innuous or Aurender etc. I’ve listened to many of the more ‘high end solutions’ but because I know how to set up and optimise a Pi along with a good quality controller, such as IPeng, or Roon, I feel I have no need to pay the sometimes eye watering prices for other solutions. The sound quality differences between these products are negligible. I have a friend who was trialling a new high end streamer recently. He already ran a very good system. He asked me to listen and told me how much better the sound quality was and how tempted he was to purchase it. It turned out that he had been listening to his old set up all along as the settings had not been changed. I found it difficult to tell him this but I thought it was interesting.

 

[BLACKMASS]

That much better than what?

That rather depends on what amplifier you partner with the Vault 2.

The Naim Star has an inbuilt amplifier plus many other features that the Bluesound Vault 2 doesn't have. You'll need to connect the Vault to an amplifier, if you hadn't realised that? They are not really comparable products at all. the Star is an all in one CD/Ripper/streamer/DAC/amp. The Vault isn't.

BLACKMASS, can you describe how the full system will be setup and how you envisage using it?

I've been through many streaming system permeabilities over the last 10 years or so, so maybe able to help streamline (pun intended) the end goal.

My current system is as follows:
Well Tempered Versalex
Trilogy 906 Phono Stage
MCRU Linear Power Supply
Linn Akurate CD player
Linn Exotik pre amp
Linn 2200 power amp
Roksan TR-5 speakers.
Cables: Chord Signature speaker cable
Linn Silvers and Yannis IC

I know next to bugger all if I'm being honest about the streaming side of things. Up until a month or so back I hadn't even considered going the streaming route.

I went for a demo of the Versalex and the dealer used the Naim Nova with the 906 Phono Stage and Harbeth speakers.
I was extremely impressed with the Nova. It looked fantastic for starters plus I could go to a one box solution. Again I hadn't considered going the one box route either.

Up until this thread I wasn't aware of the Bluesound Vault 2, which seems another viable and attractive route.
I really don't want to buy a laptop just to rip CD's so the Vault seems an ideal way to go.
I could sell my CD player and put the funds towards the Vault and keep my Linn amps.

Or I sell my CD player and amps and put the funds towards the Naim Star?

Hopefully now you can see my predicament?

 

[DNM]

Taken in isolation, a car's 0-60 time or a streamer's clock precision is rather one-dimensional

Yes, there are lots of contributory factors determining the performance of cars and far fewer that determine the SQ of streamers, but lets not get derailed shall we and stick to jitter performance for now.

According to Auralic's figures, although I expect they got the figure from the manufacturer or the clocks.

So it would seem there aren't any measurements of jitter output from the expensive Auralic, just a nebulous reference to the clocks used. Interesting how this becomes part of the sales pitch.

With the exception of the "does Auralic have a monopoly on low jitter" question, which I took to be rhetorical, all of your points are addressed in posts #63 and #68 in this thread. Before you respond, consider the vast array of different design choices and priorities that make up the current DAC and streamer markets, taking into account all of the other variables which might conceivably influence sound quality. I do not believe that these are adequately captured in the two examples I offered or the three/four examples you offered.

No, you haven't answered the 'Why' 72 Femtoseconds of jitter makes a difference to DAC's that use their own internal clocks. You've merely employed the technique of suggestion by stating high end DAC's will "almost certainly" react positively then gone on to use words like "might" and "subjective".

 

[Dowser]

As above, I think first thing is to look at media sources you want to play and then dip your toe in at the cheap end of the market first.

My journey;

Cheapest option I found was an older Airport Express (I bought 3 here in CH for family and friends at average price of £12 each!) - but SQ of early AEs at least was not that great (convenience and usability balances this out somewhat), I also have tried a Raspberry Pi just for audio (with an add-on DAC Board) - better audio quality, but still not comparable to CD or vinyl, just very, very convenient. However, I ended up using it with OSMC & Kodi to be able to play all media types, not just audio.

I have recently purchased a Pioneer N-50 streamer (pick it up tomorrow, so haven’t played with it yet) - main reason being it also has digital inputs, so I can use it as a digi switching unit into my existing analogue pre-amp - plan is to use my Xbox One S via DLNA to stream video and photo content from my NAS (QNAP) to my TV via HDMI (decommissioning RPi with Kodi in process), and to take toslink out from my TV into the Pioneer streamer to deliver movie audio. Audio content can also be streamed by the Pioneer natively via same DLNA service on my NAS, meaning no TV required to browse content. Finally, I grudgingly admit that internet radio nowadays is pretty close in SQ (maybe better?) to a decent analogue tuner setup, and has the advantage of being able to play my beloved Triple J radio station from Oz too, so means I can also strip the tuner from my system.

The Pioneer is also a fairly decent design as far as I can see from the service manual - as an addicted bodger I’m also interested in seeing what better PSUs and decoupling does to the SQ

That will likely complete my journey, although I still have a hankering to rip my vinyl to DSD, and to be able to replay it natively too...legacy hardware to do the A->D piece is still too expensive for my tastes...I can wait

N-50 has been in the system a few days now, I am quite impressed. Better quality playing file based audio than I recall having with the RPi/iQ DAC running Volumino I think (one caveat - I am using DLNA now, I didn't with the RPi - but I do not think that should make any difference), internet radio not quite as good as a Quad FM4...but with a lot more station options Toslink input from TV through the Pioneer sounds the same as RCA analogue out. Airplay is a nice benefit too - N-50 auto switches to Airplay when you select it from the iDevice or iTunes.

So I'm happy - outstanding points now are software based challenges - the Pioneer control app is dreadful (I've had to reboot the N-50 twice so far, due to lock ups caused by the control app), I can use other Control Point IOS apps instead, but am currently using a very old QNAP NAS with a 2010 version of Twonky, which 8Player Lite for instance doesn't like browsing.

I'm half way copying my data across to a newer NAS - intention will be to run Minimserver for audio only (& either Twonky or native QNAP QTS sw to feed video to the Xbox) with something like 8Player or Kinsky as the control point (any other recomendations for good IOS control point software?). My next challenge will be to put some order into the huge mess of audio files I have collected over the years, but there seem to be tools to help me.

Overall sound quality is not as good as decent CD or vinyl playback - as in all my previous experiments, you can get great dynamics but very little in the way of imaging or sound stage depth (which is important to me) - but the convenience of having a single box deliver all of my digital audio needs is pretty pervasive

Richard

 

[krenzler]

What makes a better streamer, Just software and operability...?

This really isn't a trifle matter. The everyday usability of the software. Some of the established hi-fi brands still haven't figured this out. I find the BluOS pretty good - so is the Auralic Lightning from what I've read (no firsthand experience).

 

[Sloop John B]

In that case, why bring up benchmark measurements? I have a different view. Such figures provide important clues about how products perform. Taken in isolation, a car's 0-60 time or a streamer's clock precision is rather one-dimensional, but all of the car and hifi equipment manufacturers I know of actually publish a variety of different specs. What is difficult to determine from the specs is whether or not you will enjoy the product, but you would not buy a car without a test drive, would you?



According to Auralic's figures, although I expect they got the figure from the manufacturer of the clocks.



With the exception of the "does Auralic have a monopoly on low jitter" question, which I took to be rhetorical, all of your points are addressed in posts #63 and #68 in this thread. Before you respond, consider the vast array of different design choices and priorities that make up the current DAC and streamer markets, taking into account all of the other variables which might conceivably influence sound quality. I do not believe that these are adequately captured in the two examples I offered or the three/four examples you offered.

I honestly don’t know why you are bothering Lee, there’s no obvious desire for information shown, just a desire to point score and win an argument.

.sjb

 

[HarryB]

Good to know. I have circa 2 thousnd CD's so the thought of ripping them all is filling me with dread.

The Vault 2 does sound ideal and the price is very attractive too.
I was thinking about going for the Naim Star but now I'm not so sure.

Will the Naim sound that much better?

I'm sure you'll be pleased with the Bluesound. In terms of price it's probably too cheap compared to the rest of my system but I'm certain it's holding its own

 

[Purité Audio]

Just ensure that’s whatever you choose allows you to play how and what you want now and in the future.
A computer of whatever hue is pretty much unbeatable in my humble opinion.
Keith

 

[Alex S]

With about ten streaming solutions arriving each week I’m pretty relieved I had a Mac Mini just lying around.

 

[Cereal Killer]

My current system is as follows:
Well Tempered Versalex
Trilogy 906 Phono Stage
MCRU Linear Power Supply
Linn Akurate CD player
Linn Exotik pre amp
Linn 2200 power amp
Roksan TR-5 speakers.
Cables: Chord Signature speaker cable
Linn Silvers and Yannis IC

I know next to bugger all if I'm being honest about the streaming side of things. Up until a month or so back I hadn't even considered going the streaming route.

I went for a demo of the Versalex and the dealer used the Naim Nova with the 906 Phono Stage and Harbeth speakers.
I was extremely impressed with the Nova. It looked fantastic for starters plus I could go to a one box solution. Again I hadn't considered going the one box route either.

Up until this thread I wasn't aware of the Bluesound Vault 2, which seems another viable and attractive route.
I really don't want to buy a laptop just to rip CD's so the Vault seems an ideal way to go.
I could sell my CD player and put the funds towards the Vault and keep my Linn amps.

Or I sell my CD player and amps and put the funds towards the Naim Star?

Hopefully now you can see my predicament?

OK so heres my tilt on things and how I'd recommend setting things up:

option 1:
Well Tempered Versalex (this is your primary source?)
906 Phono Stage.
One box Amp/streamer/roon endpoint (no integrated CD ripper as it'll ultimately become redundant once ripped) Naim Nova primary candidate here
Innuos Mini http://www.innuos.com/en/catalog/go/zen-mini-mk2-xl
Roksan TR-5 speakers
EWA-LS25 speaker cables

I nearly built a similar system to this being:
LP12 with integrated Urika II Moving Coil phonostage
Naim Nova or 272/250DR
QNAP TS-251+ with 8GB RAM & 2TB SSD storage and roon/Tidal (NAS)
ProAc SM100's
EWA-LS25 speaker cables

Reason things changed was i couldn't convince myself to put big money into an LP12 again. You may also notice i don't have any kind of CD drive/ripper. This is because i found once ripped, buying downloads achieves better results as the file sizes/content were never manipulated to fit within the 720Mb limit of CD media.

Being unconvinced a TT would ever become my primary source again the search for option 2 began:
TT on the cards but maybe sometime in the distant future 'if and when'
All electronics must be one/two box: amp/streamer/roon endpoint. (no integrated CD ripper needed) Naim Nova or 272/250DR primary candidates.
QNAP TS-251+ with 8GB RAM & 2TB SSD storage and roon/Tidal (NAS)
ProAc SM100's
EWA-LS25 speaker cables

But again stopped to go one further and include the (future) requirement of a phonostage within the amp/s..... which is a very challenging product to find.
So with the TT 'on the cards' (300 vinyl's i can't cut ties with ) i ended up with:
Devialet Expert 220 Pro (which has had its Core Infinity update)
QNAP TS-251+ with 8GB RAM & 2TB SSD storage and roon/Tidal (NAS)
ProAc SM100's
EWA-LS25 speaker cables

Originally i was very much set on moving to a Nova or 272/250DR but came across a brand new (discounted) Devialet 220 Pro. Did some digging and found out it also contains one of the finest phonostages (apparently) so demo/advice time began again....... long story short; the Devialet beat the Nova hands down and much to my surprise also put Naims 272/250DR combo back on the bench. With a little bit of 'persuasion' me and the dealer (musicraft) came to a deal, the system took shape.

As you say you're a little technophobic with streaming systems the Innuos Zen Mini will do everything you need out the box and has the CD drive/ripper built in and has 2TB of storage all for £799, leaving the amp of choice to remain focused on what it should be doing.

If you feel a little braver, build a NAS like mine or the equivalent Synology version (similar cost to the Zen Mini but SSD) and install roon directly onto it.
With either the Zen or 'a' NAS you can map the drive to any PC/laptop and if it has a CD-ROM drive you can rip directly to the (mapped) drive... presuming you have a laptop!

hope that was a little helpful!

 

[AndyU]

Does the Innuos Zen Mini support streaming services such as Tidal, Qobuz, Apple Music and roon?

 

[Cereal Killer]

Yes All of them IIRC, stripped for the link above:

Rediscover Your Music and Discover New One
Play all your music as well as Internet Radio and streaming services with the best sound quality by connecting directly to a DAC or Digital Amplifier via asynchronous USB.

Spotify, Tidal and Qobuz require premium subscriptions

Supports All Major Music Formats
The innuOS Music Player plays FLAC, DSD, MQA, WAV, Apple Lossless, AIFF, M4A and MP3 supporting bitrates up to 32bit/384KHz and DSD256, when connecting to compatible DACs

Playback from NAS
Play music stored on an external NAS drive.

Roon-Ready Player
The innuOS Music Player can optionally become a Roon-Ready player so you can use the amazing Roon interface to explore your music like never before.

Find out more about Roon integration

 

[Cereal Killer]

This may help: https://gizmodo.com/how-to-build-the-ultimate-movie-and-music-server-1791829599