SNP - what are Scots thoughts?

[TheDecameron]

What about the gap in between, ie in between 2010 and 2016? It was not inconceivable then, right? In 2014, Brexit and a hard right English nationalist government was not there. But you voted for Scottish Independence.

Come on, 'fess up. You just hate the English coming up your way and getting on your nerves, right?

Brexit was already being publicly discussed by the Tories and we had the threat of the Tory hundred year Reich with Labour votes gone from Scotland. Parachute time.

But I have been open and called out. And I have responded and taken the knocks from many fishies. He was one of them. And so this is why I call him out on this issue. But he never engages.

So go on, if it is approximately as whiffy as my actions have been, why have you not called him out, like you have me umpteen times? Don't you think it is weird that someone would vote out in 2014 and then talk about how economically doomed we are going to be in the UK for pulling out of the EU.

Rich, you are a provincial grifter who reduces everyone else’s view of the world to your own. You’re on the blag, you look around and assume everyone else must be too. When I’ve a little more time tomorrow, I’ll spell my position out for you again but in the knowledge it’s not going to do much good.

 

[skito]

I have just read this thread and am horrified at some posters' misconception of the nature of Scottish nationalism. The SNP promotes independence for Scotland on the basis of civic nationalism which is an inclusive form of nationalism that adheres to traditional liberal values of freedom, tolerance, equality and individual rights. It is explicitly not any form of ethnic or 'blood and soil' nationalism.

For the record, I voted yes in 2014 and will do so again given the opportunity.

'Inclusive form of nationalism’. I've heard it all now! A special ’inclusive’ that says we don't want you England, instead we want a border between us with this separation to be made on the basis that we are Scottish and you are not. The vote to allow other residents to vote is no disguise or excuse otherwise. This is pure nationalism with England your bogey man which you use to stir up discontent and blame for your ills. Your gobbledygook double think is more horrifying!

 

[richardg]

Rich, you are a provincial grifter

Libel.....needs removing.

 

[TheDecameron]

Scotland is pursuing independence predicated on civic nationalism. Scottish Government has described the type of inclusive society it wants to build and has published on this including the need for immigration to sustain the economy and bring in new talent. The same impetus achieved Norway’s independence from Sweden, created modern Finland- two countries very similar to Scotland in size and culture. Both countries have strong bonds with their neighbours, their independence doesn’t call for barriers with Sweden and surrounding countries- quite the opposite in fact.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civic_nationalism

 

[TheDecameron]

With an Independent Scotland and England both in the EU there’d be no need for a border and freedom of movement would be enshrined, so why would a Scottish government “erect a border to keep English people out”?

 

[skito]

Quality rant. Try engaging your brain before the next one.

You seem unable to counter the point. You are not doing your side any favours with such tactics.

 

[richardg]

With an Independent Scotland and England both in the EU there’d be no need for a border and freedom of movement would be enshrined, so why would a Scottish government “erect a border to keep English people out”?

We could just employ a few Group 4 dudes to patrol this. You can have Northumberland if you pay their wages.

 

[skito]

Scotland is pursuing independence predicated on civic nationalism. Scottish Government has described the type of inclusive society it wants to build and has published on this including the need for immigration to sustain the economy and bring in new talent. The same impetus achieved Norway’s independence from Sweden, created modern Finland- two countries very similar to Scotland in size and culture. Both countries have strong bonds with their neighbours, their independence doesn’t call for barriers with Sweden and surrounding countries- quite the opposite in fact.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civic_nationalism

Yes it's rather unfashionable and not politically correct to be nationalist so they've really had to rack their brains and come up with something that sounds more palatable. It doesn't wash however. Talk of inclusive or civic nationalism to the non converted sounds ridiculous.

 

[TheDecameron]

Yes it's rather unfashionable and not politically correct to be nationalist so they've really had to rack their brains and come up with something that sounds more palatable. It doesn't wash however. Talk of inclusive or civic nationalism to the non converted sounds ridiculous.

What’s your view on the possibility of a referendum in N. Ireland on reunification?

 

[richardg]

It's less murky than the other form of nationalism. My concern for Scotland is that it would only get over the line with help from the other version. It's there, living and breathing...and as we see in England, you only need a chink of political change for stuff like this to nose its way out of its rat hole.

I am not entirely convinced about Decameron's points. In 2014 he was voting for an agenda driven by Alex Salmond. And if anyone says he is more pro Scotland and civic nationalism than he is anti English, then I will never agree. So you are right Dec, your argument won't do much good. I wish the Jocks luck, though. I'd vote out if I was living there. But this is because I believe small, lean and free is better.

 

[Jim Audiomisc]

Depends what you mean by well that's scunnered the economy. If it means Brexit has, then the point does not work at all, since Hugh voted to leave before this happened.

No. It means if people *think* that is the case or will be so.

 

[Jim Audiomisc]

Well, it depends how you perceive the nothing. I think he was describing a democratic deficit which at the moment Scotland is certainly suffering from.

I think it applies to both the EU referendum *and* any fresh Scots IndyRef in the near future. In each case I suspect many will base their decision on it, plus perhaps an abhorrence of BoJo and his chums.

I don't think it was particularly significant in the previous Scots IndyRef.

BTW The phrase was my dad's. Based on his life as a child in what can be regarded as 'poor' areas of east London. (There is a transcript of some of his recollections here

http://jcgl.orpheusweb.co.uk/history/people/dad.html

if anyone is curious.

It is perhaps now becoming more relevant again given Tory domination, etc.

 

[Brian]

Scotland is pursuing independence predicated on civic nationalism. Scottish Government has described the type of inclusive society it wants to build and has published on this including the need for immigration to sustain the economy and bring in new talent. The same impetus achieved Norway’s independence from Sweden, created modern Finland- two countries very similar to Scotland in size and culture. Both countries have strong bonds with their neighbours, their independence doesn’t call for barriers with Sweden and surrounding countries- quite the opposite in fact.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civic_nationalism

Even the Tory party recognise immigration is required so it's hardly a great example of some kind of warm and cuddly type of nationalism.

 

[Jim Audiomisc]

I’m getting a bit BOB and want to leave the U.K. and the EU and was wondering if Scotland might be a good place to go.

Is there much paperwork involved and do I have to take a Scottishness test?

Tell 'em you had yer tea before you came and Aberdeen will take you.

 

[skito]

What’s your view on the possibility of a referendum in N. Ireland on reunification?

Well, Scotland and England are already on this small mainland island which is geographically indivisible and is currently politically unified save for the SNP failing to respect the recent No vote. Should god forbid SNP win the next vote how long is independence to be for? Should those in favour of a United Kingdom continue to fight after a defeat until reunification thus eternally destabilising the country? I suspect you want the vote for Independence to be forever whilst simultaneously disrespecting the recent No vote. Regarding your question, the possibility of a vote on Irish reunification, given the history I don't think this raises the same unnecessary and purely nationalist issues as the current attempts by the SNP to destroy the Union which is purely a nationalistic and unnecessary fantasy.

 

[TheDecameron]

It's less murky than the other form of nationalism. My concern for Scotland is that it would only get over the line with help from the other version. It's there, living and breathing...and as we see in England, you only need a chink of political change for stuff like this to nose its way out of its rat hole.

I am not entirely convinced about Decameron's points. In 2014 he was voting for an agenda driven by Alex Salmond. And if anyone says he is more pro Scotland and civic nationalism than he is anti English, then I will never agree. So you are right Dec, your argument won't do much good. I wish the Jocks luck, though. I'd vote out if I was living there. But this is because I believe small, lean and free is better.

I’ve been open about the thinking behind my voting history for a decade on pfm. I’m not interested in changing your mind, only opening it a bit now and again. Thank you for “wishing the Jocks luck”. I hope they doff their caps in appreciation.

 

[davidsrsb]

It's only 300 years since James VI moved South. Not very long in the big scheme

 

[TheDecameron]

It's only 300 years since James VI moved South. Not very long in the big scheme

I enjoyed one notable biographer describing his tardy journey to London to be crowned as him “slowly hunting his way down the A1” where his entourage stayed at the estates of various barons and went out hunting.
I do feel an apology is due to the English for visiting him on them. He was a monster.

 

[Colin L]

You seem unable to counter the point. You are not doing your side any favours with such tactics.

Ive read a number of your posts over the last few days. Logic and clear thinking isn’t your forte so a detailed response isn’t worth my time.

 

[Colin L]

Regarding your question, the possibility of a vote on Irish reunification, given the history I don't think this raises the same unnecessary and purely nationalist issues as the current attempts by the SNP to destroy the Union which is purely a nationalistic and unnecessary fantasy.

So, let’s see how this goes.

Re: bold above. Why? Explain please.