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SNP - what are Scots thoughts?

Perhaps because the EU is perceived positively in Scotland and Westminster much less so.
Its not that, I appreciate that and do not disagree, It's the fact that both are facing a huge leap into the unknown by leaving, yet some Scots here seem to think Scotland leaving UK is perhaps more economically doable than the UK leaving the EU. Take Decameron, for example. He sees nothing but poverty ahead and hasn't since June 2016. Fair enough. Except in 2014 he was obviously confident it was doable for Scotland to leave.

It does not add up.
 
Independence, as has been pointed out many times, is not simply about economics; there a many reasons, that different people will have, for wanting it e.g. just look at the chaotic shitshow that Westminster has been for the past three years, and is getting (much) worse by the day...
 
Jings, crivens, help ma boab! There'll be hordes of Sassenachs coming o'er the border! :eek:

:D ;)

I've been getting mental images of BoJo as being a version from hell of "Oor Wullie" grown up, gone to seed! The workers in the Tablet mines under Dundee Law would be horrified! I wonder if PE will make the connection...
 
For me Scottish Independence is a balance of risks. In the Blair years with the foundation of our own parliament it would have been inconceivable for me. The risks of independence are very real but the risks of doing nothing - accepting hard / any Brexit and a hard right English Nationalist government in London- are much greater. I’m certain informal talks are already ongoing with Brussels.
What about the gap in between, ie in between 2010 and 2016? It was not inconceivable then, right? In 2014, Brexit and a hard right English nationalist government was not there. But you voted for Scottish Independence.

Come on, 'fess up. You just hate the English coming up your way and getting on your nerves, right?
 
Independence, as has been pointed out many times, is not simply about economics; there a many reasons, that different people will have, for wanting it e.g. just look at the chaotic shitshow that Westminster has been for the past three years, and is getting (much) worse by the day...
Yes of course. But the wall of noise coming from Remainers, including some Scottish ones that voted yes in 2014, is predominantly about the economics. We're goosed without the EU etc....
 
What about the gap in between, ie in between 2010 and 2016? It was not inconceivable then, right? In 2014, Brexit and a hard right English nationalist government was not there. But you voted for Scottish Independence.

Come on, 'fess up. You just hate the English coming up your way and getting on your nerves, right?

Sheesh! You really need to let this nonsense go. :(
 
Yes of course. But the wall of noise coming from Remainers, including some Scottish ones that voted yes in 2014, is predominantly about the economics. We're goosed without the EU etc....

I'm not sure you are correct overall. I suspect it also a case of people being upset that the assertion "You will be thrown out of the EU if you choose Scots Independence" causing them to vote 'No' now constitutes a fair number of those annoyed by being made to leave the EU despite having voted 'Remain'.

I'd be interested to see some reliable figures on this that untangle the numbers showing how many have followed various trajectories.
 
I'm not sure you are correct overall. I suspect it also a case of people being upset that the assertion "You will be thrown out of the EU if you choose Scots Independence" causing them to vote 'No' now constitutes a fair number of those annoyed by being made to leave the EU despite having voted 'Remain'.

I'd be interested to see some reliable figures on this that untangle the numbers showing how many have followed various trajectories.
Maybe not. But the complaints about the impending state of the UK economy because of Brexit from Scottish people that voted yes in 2014 have a whiff about them. Eg check out Decameron's post in Oh Britain about the value of Sterling going in the wrong direction. Like Scotland would have had a smooth time of it?
 
An independent Scotland back in the EU or EFTA has the possibility of becoming an English speaking banking hub. If it managed to get 20% of what London is about to throw away, it will be a very healthy boost to the economy. Probably not wise to aim for more, post Thatcher UK shows what goes wrong when you allow banking to become too dominant over industry, agriculture and tourism
 
Maybe not. But the complaints about the impending state of the UK economy because of Brexit from Scottish people that voted yes in 2014 have a whiff about them. Eg check out Decameron's post in Oh Britain about the value of Sterling going in the wrong direction. Like Scotland would have had a smooth time of it?

Is it any whiffier than shitting the bed in 2016 and promptly pissing off to Europe? Methinks some double standards are in play here...
 
Is it any whiffier than shitting the bed in 2016 and promptly pissing off to Europe? Methinks some double standards are in play here...
But I have been open and called out. And I have responded and taken the knocks from many fishies. He was one of them. And so this is why I call him out on this issue. But he never engages.

So go on, if it is approximately as whiffy as my actions have been, why have you not called him out, like you have me umpteen times? Don't you think it is weird that someone would vote out in 2014 and then talk about how economically doomed we are going to be in the UK for pulling out of the EU.
 
Maybe not. But the complaints about the impending state of the UK economy because of Brexit from Scottish people that voted yes in 2014 have a whiff about them. Eg check out Decameron's post in Oh Britain about the value of Sterling going in the wrong direction. Like Scotland would have had a smooth time of it?

I suspect the feeling might be, "Well that's scunnered the economy, so we might as well have Independence now so we can get through it and be rid of the b00gers who inflicted it upon us!" (1) However given the lack of reliable info on who has been through which trajectory of view we can only guess. And I can only explain my own basis for what I thought then, and think now.

A few years ago people tended to argue that the oil - call it Scots or UK - was on the dwindle anyway, and with climate change would become of less economic value, so couldn't be a basis for a Scottish economy even if deemed Scottish. However again, events seem to be changing the scenario. We now have fair bit of wind and wave power to the point of exporting it 'down south'. Once you add in sufficient mechanisms for energy storage, that'll be handy.

So events occur, and people can change their minds when they experience them. Makes it difficult for crystal ball readers. Despite some of those who speak crystal, erm, orbs, like BoJo and his chums. Who said we'd get a deal 'quickly and easily' during the campaign for the EU ref, but seem to have lost the bus that was written on now... Hence even they seem to change their minds following events. :) (This, of course, assumes they do *have* minds in terms of how that word is normally defined.)

(1) A more extreme version of this was maxim my dad taught me. learned before WW1 when he was young. "When you have nothing, you have nothing to lose." Under the Tories more and more people have been discovering this.
 
An independent Scotland back in the EU or EFTA has the possibility of becoming an English speaking banking hub. If it managed to get 20% of what London is about to throw away, it will be a very healthy boost to the economy. Probably not wise to aim for more, post Thatcher UK shows what goes wrong when you allow banking to become too dominant over industry, agriculture and tourism

Hmmm. To some extent, events now are also illustrating that concern. Basically, it is 'big money' that has been driving the Tories and Brexit and bankrolling the process. Switzerland-on-Sea. So I'd be wary of what you wish for here. Particularly if the EU now use the opportunity to pull the wheels off their little wagon...
 
Some of the Scottish hills would make ideal pump storage sites if they were not used for grouse shooting, much bigger scale than the Welsh plant.

Grouse shooting estates have increasingly become seen these days as an artificial environment propped up to suit a few wealthy chaps. The relevant areas were in the past quite different. More often forest than moor. And with a more diverse ecology. Given the value of trees, etc, this may all change sometime soon. The Scottish Government have already made changes to land law, etc, that may be relevant here.
 
@richgilb I think Jim sums it up succinctly. Also I don’t see how it’s beyond a straw man argument. More likely is the person who thinks Scotland would have been better off then due to natural resources/ultimately joining the Euro etc. now believes that due to Brexit they’ll double down on that opinion. I mean, with Boris et al in charge there’s going to be nothing for anybody north of say Wembley. There’s nothing whiffy at all that I can see.
 
ll Basically, it is 'big money' that has been driving the Tories and Brexit and bankrolling the process. Switzerland-on-Sea. So I'd be wary of what you wish for here. Particularly if the EU now use the opportunity to pull the wheels off their little wagon...
The Caymans on steroids that kleptocrat money is pushing for is not the same business as the reasonably well regulated Eurozone banking industry that fuels the City. The Brexit banking business won't be allowed to do much in the cleaner economies
 
@richgilb I think Jim sums it up succinctly. Also I don’t see how it’s beyond a straw man argument. More likely is the person who thinks Scotland would have been better off then due to natural resources/ultimately joining the Euro etc. now believes that due to Brexit they’ll double down on that opinion. I mean, with Boris et al in charge there’s going to be nothing for anybody north of say Wembley. There’s nothing whiffy at all that I can see.

Although BoJo seems to have found a secret garden behind No 10 wherein grows the Magic Money Tree which May seems to have missed! Question is, who believes him? Clearly some people are that gullible, but enough?...
 
@richgilb I think Jim sums it up succinctly. Also I don’t see how it’s beyond a straw man argument. More likely is the person who thinks Scotland would have been better off then due to natural resources/ultimately joining the Euro etc. now believes that due to Brexit they’ll double down on that opinion. I mean, with Boris et al in charge there’s going to be nothing for anybody north of say Wembley. There’s nothing whiffy at all that I can see.
Depends what you mean by well that's scunnered the economy. If it means Brexit has, then the point does not work at all, since Hugh voted to leave before this happened.

If it's Ok for Scottish people to feel like they have nothing to lose and then act by voting out, howcome the English that voted out can't be afforded the same sympathy? They get called gammon on here.

Regards
 
If it's Ok for Scottish people to feel like they have nothing to lose and then act by voting out, howcome the English that voted out can't be afforded the same sympathy? They get called gammon on here.

Because Scotland voted to remain in Europe and feel independence is the route to remaining and prosperity not going down with HM England. They were told that a vote to stay in the union was a vote to remain in Europe. That went well didn’t it? To be honest if Manchester could declare independence and join Scotland I’d be all for it. I don’t personally believe the kicking Cameron over austerity as a reason for Brexit argument. That’s far too nuanced for some of the numpties I meet day to day. As a Northerner living in a northern town that did vote to leave, I think it was mostly down to ignorance or racism. Let’s kick the foreigners out. I have heard many times since the vote expressions and variations of the themes that when Brexit happens we’ll be able to send the Pakistanis back or there’ll be no effing gypsies in the Doctors. Brexit happened because of ignorance and prejudice. The consequence of the racist genie being let out of the bottle is we get a bunch of racists and facists in charge. I don’t like the nasty racist place Little England has become, and those who voted for it knowing full well they could insulate themselves from the effects because they were wealthy or could take their work to Europe deserve a special place in hell in my opinion.
 


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