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SME 3009R - anything to check for if buying?

EDITED:
Here are the counterweight disassembled into two counterweights and the bent rider (and I cleaned them after the photos were taken - just allay any fears). They do look well-made with a care for detail. The rubber ring is there to make a tight connection.

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Tony L said:
To my eyes it looks original aside from the thumb-wheel things on the counterweight and outrider.
Click to expand...
The main weight's locating 'knob' certainly looks incorrect, as it appears to have a 'knurled' finish, but I'm not sure about the one on the rider weight.
As I mentioned in my earlier post, I purchased an allegedly 'new' 3009R, via 'epay', which was fitted with a 'grub screw' to the pillar base clamp, rather than the elongated type (Boss Clamp Extension - SME part description) shown in the published images. Luckily, at that time (2016) I was able to purchase all the 'correct' bits from SME.
I assume that as Robert (Analog Tube Audio) mentioned, that any missing / incorrect parts, are still available, which would enable the arm in question to be restored to 'as new' condition.
My own arm, which has been re-wired, and retro-fitted with the bronze knife edge bearing & 'RCA' plug conversion both from A.T.A., has been 'packaged up' and waiting to be forwarded to Robert at A.T.A. since ealier this year - I was waitng for 'brexit' to be finalized - Ha! Ha!
Regards
Mike Kelshaw
 
If the counter-weights themselves are correct, why would the German SME service tell me that they are not correct? I certainly hope it is not in order to make me pay for a new set - disclaimer/warning - this is where my wife tells me to lay off the conspiracy theories.

Who can tell me authoritatively what is what here. The counter weights and rider weight cannot both be non standard and standard at the same time. We live in a somewhat stable world not inhabited by Schrödinger objects. Either the weights are the correct ones or they are not. I know what I prefer them to be.

The screws seem to be non standard. What about the rider rod (the bent thing) that has red marking on most all photos of SME 3009R arms?
 
Here is Alfred Kayser's rather conclusive reply,

Hi Peter –

That arm is as fake as xxxx!!!


The following items are clearly cheap xxx xxxx ... counterfeit garbage

The counter weight and the retaining screw are counterfeit

The rider weight and the retaining screw are counterfeit

The way rod (rider weight carrier) is counterfeit


The knife edge bearing is plastic with the cutoff back, it appears correct , the screws are not correct and appear to have removed and put back in many times.


This arm has been put together out of scrap parts


The bias weight guide assembly is correct for an “ R “ version arm (bias weight support wire)


I am unable to tell you if the counter weight stub is counterfeit as I can not see enough of it.


To be honest I think even the arm tube has been harvested from a 3009 Improved.

(...)

Peter if this is a EBay deal contact EBay and initiate a return at once based on the fact this

item is not as represented , do a charge back.


Do you have the EBay item number , I would love to see the original auction .


Yours Truly – Alfred Kayser


www.smetonearms.com

--------------------
Thanks all. I have just written the seller and demanded that the trade is void and null so I give him back his "pukka" arm and cash, and I receive the Trilogy 907 back.
 
No chance of having the trade go back unless I go through the police and court system. The seller became really riled up and forbade me to ever contact him again or use his photos etc. He also sent me the link to this thread and let me know that he would like to punch the experts for saying the things they did about his arm. It would be good if he could appear on this thread and tell us where he got the arm.

I think I wil have to send the arm to someone who knows SME like the back of their hands to make 100% sure. SME UK wrote me that the parts looked like SME parts and if they were not, they were extremely well-made copies indeed. Then again, we have the two independent experts and other people stating that the arm is a composite of both genuine and forged parts.

I will update this thread when I have had the arm sent to an independent expert.
 
Rosewind said:
SME UK wrote me that the parts looked like SME parts and if they were not, they were extremely well-made copies indeed. Then again, we have the two independent experts and other people stating that the arm is a composite of both genuine and forged parts.
Click to expand...

I was surprised to read the replies from Rober Graetke & Alfred Kayser, both of whom from their 'web pages' appear to be skilled in SME restorations. May I have the temerity to ask if either of those two gentlemen have examined the actual arm?
I shall now be submitting images of my 3009R before dispatching it to A.T.A., given that the final cost of the proposed 'rebuild' is going to be too expensive for me to justify.

Regards
Mike Kelshaw
 
No they have not seen the actual arm in the flesh, so I have contacted an experienced Danish dealer near me, whom I communicated with about my EAR 516 and (now sold) 509s. He has an outspoken blog about kit on his website and has written a piece about the various iterations of the SME tonearm from 3009 to V (or so). I am sure that he wille be able to tell what is what. He will also be able to service it which will be a boon.
 
I’m still skeptical here beyond the bolts being wrong. Other than being bloody filthy the counterweights look right to me. Surely if there were fakes there would be precedent somewhere. To get that fit and finish is not easy, certainly way, way out of reach of some random bloke with a lathe. There is a considerable setup cost to make parts of that quality, so I’d expect them to be known on the market as third-party conversion kits. Also neither the pre-Improved nor Improved had the same rear stub assembly, so they’d need to fake that too! Can you tell if the arm tube is stainless steel or alloy? The R has the former, all other 3009s bar the very first Series I have a lighter alloy. Again that might be a clue.

So, can anyone show me evidence of another SME 3009 R fake anywhere? My guess is someone has lost the bolts and found some that fit! I’d like to see pictures of it cleaned up though as if what I am interpreting as dirt is machining imperfections then my opinion changes instantly. SME’s fit and finish is never less than Japanese camera-grade perfection.

PS I’d still contact SME in the UK before taking opinion of third-parties etc.
 
SME UK said that as far as they could see it is genuine. They have spare parts for it if needed. I need a person to see it here, then I will send it to the UK for a service.

I also have a contact to someone who has a SME 3009R on his own. It has only half the counter-weight that mine does.
 
If SME say it’s genuine everyone else can be ignored as far as I’m concerned! I suspect you have found third-parties looking to sell you things! Just deal with SME direct, they are a great company. I suspect all you actually need are the two bolt things and a new headshell.
 
I hope so. SME said that it looked genuine on the photos and if was not, it would be an almost perfect copy. I will have it looked at by a real person.

I really do not hope that I was being sold something I already had by the international SME repair men. That would indeed be a scam which would mean that there will always be an unlimited supply of parts ...
 
The response from SME appears equivocal at best. SME is no longer the "old SME" - it has changed hands several times over the years, most recently (2018) to an Indian company (Cadence Audio SA). I suspect no-one there knows anything about the classical products. Ask them to show you pictures of their replacement parts as installed on your arm - there won't be any!
 
sktn77a said:
The response from SME appears equivocal at best. SME is no longer the "old SME" - it has changed hands several times over the years, most recently (2018) to an Indian company (Cadence Audio SA). I suspect no-one there knows anything about the classical products. Ask them to show you pictures of their replacement parts as installed on your arm - there won't be any!
Click to expand...

I’ve not contacted them since that point, but they are still in the original Steyning factory and I assume have retained much if not all of the workforce. It’s still very much SME, certainly not a vintage name printed onto a Chinese box the way so much “UK audio” is these days. I’m sure they’ll know.

PS If you’ve got £20k+ spare they’ll sell you a lovely new Garrard 301!
 
Tony L said:
I’m still skeptical here beyond the bolts being wrong. Other than being bloody filthy the counterweights look right to me. Surely if there were fakes there would be precedent somewhere. To get that fit and finish is not easy, certainly way, way out of reach of some random bloke with a lathe. There is a considerable setup cost to make parts of that quality, so I’d expect them to be known on the market as third-party conversion kits. Also neither the pre-Improved nor Improved had the same rear stub assembly, so they’d need to fake that too! Can you tell if the arm tube is stainless steel or alloy? The R has the former, all other 3009s bar the very first Series I have a lighter alloy. Again that might be a clue.

So, can anyone show me evidence of another SME 3009 R fake anywhere? My guess is someone has lost the bolts and found some that fit! I’d like to see pictures of it cleaned up though as if what I am interpreting as dirt is machining imperfections then my opinion changes instantly. SME’s fit and finish is never less than Japanese camera-grade perfection.

PS I’d still contact SME in the UK before taking opinion of third-parties etc.
Click to expand...

+1 for the above Tony - but, as I've already mentioned, my particular 3009R, when inspected 'after purchase', certainly had at least a non-standard clamping screw arrangement, and later when inspected during the course of a re-wire plus installation of an A.T.A. 'RCA' conversion kit plus 'bronze' bearing', at Audio Origami (Yes, it already had what appeared to be the correct SME RCA 'can' fitted - just my O.C.D.), J.N. contacted me to report that the base plate / clamp parts seemed to have been 'bodged' when assembled. In addition, when received, the base plate did not have a 'serial no.' attached.
Worst case senario - perhaps mine had been built in the alleged old British tradition of assemling a complete item from a 'kit' of parts smuggled out from the factory - No doubt, somebody somewhere, knows the truth.
However, at that point (2015-2016 ?- 'epay' only appears to have purchase records back as far as 2017), and after several years of unsuccessfully searching for a 3009R or preferably a 3010R, and during the course of that seach, being advised over the telephone (long distance) by Mr. Kayser (kindly) that I would probably be better off buying one of the then 'new' M2-9R's - I didn't care.
At the time, there were and still are, several 3012R's available, some on Mr. Kayser's excellent website, but few, if any 3009R or 3010R versions seem to surface. Sadly for me, and not too long ago A.T.A. had an immaculate, completely restored one for sale, which although expensive (for me) I would have preferred to purchase.
With hindsight (Ha! Ha!) I would have probably have been better off purchasing a 3012R at the time and buying a new plinth to suit, so I can fully sympathise Rosewind, but I'm also intrigued to know the outcome of the 'expert' inspection.

Regards
Mike Kelshaw
 
Stunsworth said:
There's an article about it in this month's Stereophile. Not had a chance to read it yet. I assume £20k also gets you plinth and arm.
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Yes, I’m a subscriber so I’ve read it. It is for the complete deck/arm/plinth and they won’t be selling the 301 as a separate motor unit. The review wasn’t entirely clear, but I’m pretty sure what they had was actually a Garrard 301, and SME are tooling up to remanufacture them. The interesting thing is it sounds like they are doing it properly, i.e. casting the chassis, platter, motor housing, not using modern CNC machining etc.

My only fear is now they own and control the Garrard name they may attempt to control or shut-down the third-party restoration market, e.g. folk making replacement bearing bushings, control plates, springs, grommets etc for original units. For me it is far, far more important that originals are kept working perfectly than any new minority-market high-end turntable. There were a couple of alarm bells in the way the Stereophile article was phrased in this regard. I very much hope SME end up helping rather than hindering the vintage audio community.

PS For clarity I do consider a fair amount of third-party “upgrades” for these decks to be junk (and highly destructive junk in the case of ceramic ball main bearing thrust-plate replacements). There are however many who make really high quality like-for-like replacements for worn parts, and I sincerely hope nothing impacts this.
 
mjkelshaw said:
+1 for the above Tony - but, as I've already mentioned, my particular 3009R, when inspected 'after purchase', certainly had at least a non-standard clamping screw arrangement, and later when inspected during the course of a re-wire plus installation of an A.T.A. 'RCA' conversion kit plus 'bronze' bearing', at Audio Origami (Yes, it already had what appeared to be the correct SME RCA 'can' fitted - just my O.C.D.), J.N. contacted me to report that the base plate / clamp parts seemed to have been 'bodged' when assembled. In addition, when received, the base plate did not have a 'serial no.' attached.
Click to expand...

My knowledge of SME is purely in a vintage context, I really don’t go much beyind the 3009 Improved aside from owning a M2-9 from new (which had no issues at all).

The old SME arms were certainly a gradually involving thing with many, many different variations within type, e.g. you can find Series II arms with split weights, combined weights, solid headshells, headshells with perforations, Series II Improved arms with either metal or nylon knife-edges, Stevenson or Baerwald geometry, inline SME armbase sockets or RCAs, and differences to the bias hanger. There was a clear direction of travel and it helps date an arm. I just don’t know enough about the R series to be able to spot this stuff though. I know they made it pretty much to special order for the Japanese and Hong Kong market and I’ve certainly seem some variations, e.g. I’ve seen some with black M2 style cuing dashpots. There may well be some variations as it was available for quite a long time, but was never mass-market (it really only sold to folk with very serious decks who wanted to use an SPU). I have a feeling the 3009R is especially rare as this market would likely buy the 12” variant.
 
Tony L said:
--- PS If you’ve got £20k+ spare they’ll sell you a lovely new Garrard 301!
Click to expand...

Sadly for me (not that I could afford one), it's shown fitted with an M2-12R arm, not an earlier 3012R, and I think that I read somewhere that the deck pictured, was actually an 'original' 301, not one of the proposed 'new' versions.
Who knows, maybe the M2 arms are better than the earlier ones, they're certainly easier to procure Ha! Ha!

Regards
Mike Kelshaw
 
EDITED:
I have an appointment today at 15 with Poul who works at Dansk Audio Teknik in Aarhus, Denmark. He is a true PA and hifi veteran and has seen his share of SME arms over the years. He has/had an SME turntable with SME V tonearm, EAR 549s, Tannoy speakers, Quad ESL and ATC pres in his private stereo set-ups. I hope to be able to have a listen.

We will soon know his professional opinion.

----------
You can see Poul's past set-ups here - the two articles are in Danish but please look at the photos. The first article is from 2014, the second from 2006:

https://lydogbillede.dk/nyheter/hjemmebiograf/prof-grej-i-hjemmeanlaegget/
http://hifi4all.dk/content/templates/besogsartikler.asp?articleid=1226&zoneid=4
 
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