Silliest French word I learnt so far
- Thread starter richardg
- Start date
The 2.5k comes from a scrappy scheme for your old car.
richardg
Admonishtrator
hmm ok thanks, yet to put down 2.5k in lieu and pay 99 a month is still cheap
mandryka
pfm Member
Just now on France Info -- a programme about floods in the North of France
La question aujourd'hui est comment est ce qu'on va utiliser les plans prevention des risques et les moyens qui soient a nos dispositions . . .
My question is, why soient and not sont?
At about 16:45 here -- though I have a feeling the link changes, it's a live link.
www.francetvinfo.fr
La question aujourd'hui est comment est ce qu'on va utiliser les plans prevention des risques et les moyens qui soient a nos dispositions . . .
My question is, why soient and not sont?
At about 16:45 here -- though I have a feeling the link changes, it's a live link.
Ecouter l'info radio en direct
Ecoutez la radio France Info en direct et suivez le fil de l'information en ligne toute la journée, retrouvez les journaux, toutes les émissions et les chroniques en temps réel et en continu
Subjunctive clause. Because there's a bit of doubt in there, I think.Just now on France Info -- a programme about floods in the North of France
La question aujourd'hui est comment est ce qu'on va utiliser les plans prevention des risques et les moyens qui soient a nos dispositions . . .
My question is, why soient and not sont?
At about 16:45 here -- though I have a feeling the link changes, it's a live link.
Ecouter l'info radio en direct
Ecoutez la radio France Info en direct et suivez le fil de l'information en ligne toute la journée, retrouvez les journaux, toutes les émissions et les chroniques en temps réel et en continu
They are saying effectively "may be at our disposition" .
mandryka
pfm Member
Right, that's what I thought -- that it's the same as "seraient a nos dispositions"
But there are people on this forum -- francophones -- telling me that the subjunctive cannot replace the conditional.
It's not the same, and the subjunctive does not replace the condital.
The conditional is a definite case, if X then Y. IF I had not gone to work today I WOULD not have been paid. The subjunctive isn't, in this case it's introducing doubt but not saying "if X then Y".
mandryka
pfm Member
So what does this sentence mean?
La question aujourd'hui est comment est ce qu'on va utiliser les plans prevention des risques et les moyens qui seraient a nos dispositions .
Is it the difference between would and may? Modal verbs are hard . . . don't get me started on ought and should.
La question aujourd'hui est comment est ce qu'on va utiliser les plans prevention des risques et les moyens qui seraient a nos dispositions .
Is it the difference between would and may? Modal verbs are hard . . . don't get me started on ought and should.
It means: "The question...is how we are going to use the plans and means that would be at our disposal".
It's the difference between a definite "would" and an indefinite " may ", the may in this case being implied, not explicit, and reflecting the speaker's opinion or views. It's a bit like saying in English "It could be argued that..." where the speaker is implicitly distancing themselves from that argument. They are using it as a hypothetical statement. Shades of "you may wish to think that...I couldn't possibly comment" .
Have you got a decent grammar book? I have French Grammar and Usage, Hawkins and Towell, pub. Arnold. Very clear, and quite advanced enough. If you are good enough to listen to French radio you'll be OK with it, it's pitched at undergraduate mod Lang level.
mandryka
pfm Member
And does it cover precisely this issue? If it does I may buy it.
it does. It has 11 pages on the subjunctive covering all the nuances, implied meanings, subtleties, when you do and don't have a choice, etc. If you go on Amazon they will do sample text, maybe even on one subject if you ask.
Buy it! The 2nd Ed, which I have, is available used VG posted to your door for under £4. There's a newer 3rd ed, £38, but I doubt that French grammar has changed massively since 2001.
I should add that my copy was chosen by my mother, a now retired English teacher, who sought the advice of the French teachers at her school for a suitably pitched reference book. They advised her well. I have to say that the subjunctive section is the bit that has been looked at repeatedly over the last 20 years, because by its very nature it's subjective. The speaker is staying or implying their own view. Or they *could be considered to be doing so*, or they could be saying something while retaining the ability to deny having said it.
"A lesser man than I, Sir, might call you an idiot!"
" Are you calling me an idiot? "
"Absolutely not, I have never called you such a thing. Whatever gave you that idea?"
One clever bit of the French subjunctive is its use to express doubt. So you get:
Il me semble clair que ceci est le cas. (Indicative, though you could use the sub. if you wanted to be less positive in how clear that you thought it was) cf:
Il me semble clair qu ceci ne soit pas le cas
Or: Il ne me semble pas clair que ceci soit le cas (subj. always used because your opinion is one of doubt. )
Nuanced, eh?
mandryka
pfm Member
Nice one, thanks.