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Raven One part II

Are there any Raven 1 owners who live near Yorkshire who fancy getting together with me for an evening of listening to compare my EMT 930st turntable against theirs?

I'm curious to find out just how good the Raven 1 is.

And by the way, I believe that the oil on my EMT should be changed every 12 months - but that's based on 24/7 use in radio stations. Sadly sleep and work get in the way of me using it 24/7. 3/7's more like it - on a good week. But then changing the oil's only a 10 minute £10 job. So it's no big deal on the EMT, nor the Raven 1 - I guess. ...I change my car oil every 3 months, but that's on Starship Enterprise mileages...
 
I can't see there's any problem. You remove the belt, lift the platter, wipe the shaft with tissue and give it a squirt. Replace platter, replace belt. Job done. Simples.....:rolleyes:
 
My Raven 1/Phantom TT just arrived last week. Still playing around with my setup, had to move my NBLs out from the wall slightly. Fantastic TT/Combo! Question for current owners: where are you plugging in the Raven PS? is it plugged in with your Naim equipment or on a separate outlet? and where are earthing the signal ground? I can earth it to my P75, 52 or leave it unearthed.
 
I'd plug the PS in with the Naim and earth the arm to the P75. However, with turntable systems you really need to experiment for best results.
 
grivois said:
5 months after getting my R1, it started sounding dull and recessed. I relubed the bearing, et voilà, it was back on form. I now relube every three or four months....
Click to expand...

There are a number of unanswered questions which need clarification to determine how severe this problem is...if indeed that is the case and Grivois wasn't imagining things.

Questions such as -
1. The unlikely event the initial lubing of the bearing was inadequate? (If so, an incorrect assumption could lead Grivois into a cycle of re-lubing with extreme frequency)
2. Was Teflon spray or the synthetic oil used initially. Is the synthetic oil causing a problem ?
Is it the same formula only "painted on" instead of sprayed ?
3. If Grivois is a frequent user, can the problem be even worse than he has experienced ?
4. Is annoyingly frequent re-lubing highlighting a fundamental bearing design problem?
5. If he is, as I believe, a careful User who is beyond reproach, what are the implications for Users who have had the T/T since 2007 and were unaware that that 3-4 monthly re-lubes were ideally required? Has any bearing damage been caused by being (possibly) "allowed to run dry" or has it merely shaded performance and the situation recoverable?

Apologies for appearing OCD on this but I have an understandable curiosity to know exactly what is going on - as I'm sure a few other interested parties are....
 
I don't think there is any such thing as a maintenance free bearing on a Raven, Linn, Garrard, Thorens or whatever. All mechanical bearings require some lubrication.

I have a Platine Verdier with a magnetic assisted bearing; but I still top up the oil very occasionally. So what's the big deal about that? I've done that to both my TD124s in the past as well as my Logic DM101 and my TD125 & TD160. Compared to a sprung TT, a solid plinth TT (like the Raven, Platine, Notts) is much simpler item to keep in tune.

I've set up and run TTs for 30 years now and I think this is a load of fuss about nothing.


Charlie
 
Charlie...the only ones who ever implied "Freedom from maintenance" - or at least a substantial degree of it - are the Distributor and Manufacturer....I am just the messenger....(Need I re-quote the contradictions?)

...In order to appreciate the mood of the market place I refer you to the reaction of MountainEagle. Potential customers clearly do not like the idea of a main bearing that quickly loses it's performance? As an existing customer I'm not too chuffed either.
 
Hi fh451,

Farenheit451 said:
Hi Grivois,
I think we need to delve a little deeper....indeed I'm surprised at the general lack of curiosity after your recent post. Would you mind describing the frequency of use of your turntable to give the Users on the Forum a better grasp of the problem?
Click to expand...

I don't see regular maintenance as a problem, and it certainly wouldn't have put me off buying the R1!

The R1 encourages frequent usage: it's that good! Mine is spinning, on average, 6 hours per day, non-stop. My girlfriend uses it too. I even leave it spinning when listening to DAC or radio to prevent the cat from getting on it.

Farenheit451 said:
There are a number of unanswered questions which need clarification to determine how severe this problem is...if indeed that is the case and Grivois wasn't imagining things.
Click to expand...

The initial lubing of the bearing was as per GT Audio (France)'s instructions: I use my finger to apply a film of the supplied Teflon lubricant over the axle and inside the bearing. Re-lubing isn't annoying, as I've said before, it takes a few minutes. I use it as an opportunity to clean the turntable and arm.

Farenheit451 said:
Charlie...the only ones who ever implied "Freedom from maintenance" - or at least a substantial degree of it - are the Distributor and Manufacturer
Click to expand...

The princeofdarknes was told by Thomas Woschnick, the manufacturer, that it's best to lubricate every six months:

princeofdarknes said:
designer Thomas Woschnick told me that it would be best to lubricate my Raven Two every six months. The owner of the shop (a well known expert on turntable design in the Netherlands) where the show was held even advised me to do so every three months
Click to expand...

I think Thomas' "every six months" is pretty much spot on because if I add non-running time (holidays and weekends away) to my initial 5-month estimate, I think it would have been over 6-calendar months before I needed that first re-lube.

grivois
 
YNWOAN said:
Blimey, this whole 'issue' is such a 'storm in a teacup'.
Click to expand...

My exact thought too.
I don't understand why some would get so worked up over this.:rolleyes:
It's not like the bearing is disintegrating before our eyes or something.

I did not get any instruction from my dealer here but i just assume it's a good idea to change the oil once a year. Easy peasy to do.
 
From the horse's mouth:

das Oel sollte ca. 1-2 mal im Jahr gewechselt werden. It is only just in case.
Wenn es 2-3 Jahre im Lager bleibt macht es dem Lager gar nichts.
Es genau wie beim Auto, einmal zuviel kann nicht schaden.
Click to expand...

Translated: the oil should be changed 1-2 times a year. It is only just in case. The bearing is not affected even if it stays in the bearing 2-3 years. It's like with cars, once too often won't hurt.


So there you have it, this particular discussion is indeed just a storm in a teacup.
 
Hi Grivois,
Many thanks for your insights. I have to admit that if my system started to sound thin & recessed my first instinct would not have been a bearing relube 5-6 months on but I would have been inclined to look at how the cables were dressed as my old naim gear (now gone) was sensitive to this i.e. in the sense that it passed the mechanical changes straight onto something that really was microphonic such as a T/T. Such were the differences the system could be thin & recessed or balanced & ambient or aggressive & forward - with no ambience!

While I've no doubt the Raven is a good turntable I still think that the tacit approval by Thomas for 3 monthly lubing is both extreme and surprising. I certainly wasn't told this - or anything within a million miles of it - at the time of purchasing and do not recall seeing anything remotely corresponding in the setup notes.

If anyone had suggested this before buying my immediate reaction would have been "Why, what's wrong with the bearing?"

A friend of mine with a Clearaudio Master Ref admits that he re-lubes the main bearing once/annum - not because he perceives a problem but because he's a dyed-in-the-wool Petrolhead and would do it whether it needs it or not.
Doing it every 3 months don't mean it's right though, and ease with which Bearing damage can be inflicted is hardly a recommendation ! I am perfectly aware of the ease with which I last lubed but was also aware of the grinding of metal against metal as the bearing locates....apart from the fact that (unlike the Linn) I get a crick in my neck trying to see under the Raven's platter !

If it were simply a case of unnecessary precautional lubing with the Raven then I think we'd all be quite happy.....but according to feedback, it's not.

To Markus's incoming post : Just in case? In case of what ?
 
princeofdarknes said:
Being a happy Raven Two owner I sometimes search the internet to see if I can find anything interesting to read about the fine turntables of TW Acoustic. I discovered this thread some time ago but until now I did not have the time to read it in full. Now that I have done just that I am surprised that there is only one post about relubricating the Raven turntables. In that particular post it is said that the Ravens do not need to be lubricated after the first initial lubrication. However, when I visited the anual analogue show in Sneek (The Netherlands) earlier this year, designer Thomas Woschnick told me that it would be best to lubricate my Raven Two every six months. The owner of the shop ( a well known expert on turntable design in the Netherlands ) where the show was held even advised me to do so every three months. Now I am very much interested in the comments of you Raven owners, especially those who have been using (and lubricating?) their Ravens for several years now.
Click to expand...


Just to requote the earlier post by Princeofdarknes. I don't know where you got the bit about TW nodding to the 3 monthly oil change routine. It was someone else at the show which suggested it.
 
Hi Markus,
Sorry I didn't get a chance to respond to you at length.
Thanks for digging that info up and for the translation....

I don't know whether to be encouraged or discouraged by the procedure. It's doubletalk similar to what we've heard earlier. "Oil should be changed 1-2 times per year....but the bearing is not affected anyway.".... Which begs the question why bother at all?
 
5. If he is, as I believe, a careful User who is beyond reproach, what are the implications for Users who have had the T/T since 2007 and were unaware that that 3-4 monthly re-lubes were ideally required? Has any bearing damage been caused by being (possibly) "allowed to run dry" or has it merely shaded performance and the situation recoverable?

i have the tt since 2007 and i _never_ relubed it - it still runs strong. i am inclined to call the R1 an almost maintenance free tt; tw told me, that you don't even have to change to neoprene belt ;!

as with all tt: precise setup is essential! is it really leveled? what about the arm/pickup setup? vta? azimuth!? there is a lot to take care of.

regards
+christian
 
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