Yes. https://www.thepinknews.com/2019/04/04/transgender-athletes-why-fair-compete/Out of curiosity, have there been cases of woman>man transgender athletes who want to compete with the men? The issue only seems to arise the other way around.
Not true. 3 transgender athletes in the Olympics.Not quite blindingly obvious.
“Currently, there is no direct or consistent research suggesting transgender female individuals (or male individuals) have an athletic advantage at any stage of their transition (e.g. cross-sex hormones, gender-confirming surgery) and, therefore, competitive sport policies that place restrictions on transgender people need to be considered and potentially revised.”
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5357259/
“In the Olympic Games, since 2004, there have been over 52,000 Olympians and not a single trans person has ever qualified, let alone won a medal.”
https://www.thepinknews.com/2019/04/04/transgender-athletes-why-fair-compete/
Yes, the article is from 2019. Three out of many thousands. Doesn’t suggest transwomen enjoy a major sporting advantage. Three trans Olympians is a negligible figure, indeed an anomaly. Hitherto you have disapproved of employing anomalies to disprove a general rule.Not true. 3 transgender athletes in the Olympics.
Quinn.
Laurel Hubbard
Alana Smith.
All 2021.
It doesn't have to. You said "none" and 2 minutes on Google said otherwise.Yes, the article is from 2019. Three out of many thousands. Doesn’t suggest transwomen enjoy a major sporting advantage.
I’m relieved that you’re acknowledging the lack of conclusive proof on both sides of the debate. The entirety of your previous contributions were predicated on the belief that there existed a self-evident physical advantage to transwomen in sport, and that that view was incontrovertibly supported by science.It's about fair competition. No horses in a dog race, no dogs in a horse race. Unless we can prove that neither has an advantage. And there, the jury is firmly out. Your mind may be made up, but people who do this for a job are still debating it.
Yes of course it provides a partisan view. And I’m sure a cursory search will reveal articles that adopt the opposite view.Thanks. But that is a website by its own definition committed to sustaining one point of view. And my impression is that the vast majority of cases is of man>woman trans wanting to compete as women. There have also been no complaints, as far as I know, but perhaps you know, of male athletes complaining of unfair competition from trans athletes.
No they weren't. Why don't you try reading what I actually write and then replying to that, instead of what you's like to reply to? I'll give you a summary of things that I have reported as fact:I’m relieved that you’re acknowledging the lack of conclusive proof on both sides of the debate. The entirety of your previous contributions were predicated on the belief that there existed a self-evident physical advantage to transwomen in sport, and that that view was incontrovertibly supported by science.
so my position has not changed.The debate about *how* transgender athletes can compete alongside non trans is a big one and complex.
Yes, in the sense of group behaviour, rather than being actually good at something.I hope I won't derail the thread, but just briefly... do you find that, in general, males are more competitive than females ? In sport or anything else.
At the 2017 swimming world championship (for a random example) the winner of the women's 100m butterfly swam 55.53s. This would have placed her 57th in the heats for the men's event. 3.5s away from last qualification spot. The man who came 25th in qualification could give her a 3s head-start and produce a close race.You still fail to address why it’s fair for persons of either sex with a pronounced genetic advantage to compete against each other, but when those (supposed) advantages are a result of a gender reassignment they are not.
Your summary is characterised by sleight-of-hand. None of the four points you highlight lead to a conclusion, supported by science, that transwomen have a biological advantage in the field of sport. But you have consistently asserted that trans status does confer advantage, and that advantage is verified by science. My position is such claims are unsustainable in the absence of conclusive proof. That is the essence of our exchange.No they weren't. Why don't you try reading what I actually write and then replying to that, instead of what you's like to reply to? I'll give you a summary of things that I have reported as fact:
1. Men outperform women in most sports (incontrovertibly supported etc)
2. Men are generally bigger and stronger (incontrovertibly supported etc) (This was what you suggested was "irrelevant" earlier.)
2. Men have a male puberty, women a female one in which body shape and size changes (incontrovertibly etc)
3. The skeletal and body morphology changes that arrive in and post puberty are non reversible (science fact)
There you go. The rest is open to debate, but the above are just facts.
You may attempt to pull apart my argument as me presenting my opinions as facts, but this is just the usual straw man nonsense.
As far as my opinions go, back on Sunday I wrote: so my position has not changed.
Further to this last point, I note that you haven't offered any insight as to how, given the facts above, trans women can meaningfully compete against non trans women.
Your summary is characterised by sleight-of-hand. None of the four points you highlight lead to a conclusion, supported by science, that transwomen have a biological advantage in the field of sport. But you have consistently asserted that trans status does confer advantage, and that advantage is verified by science. My position is such claims are unsustainable in the absence of conclusive proof. That is the essence of our exchange.
Do continue to respond, if you are inclined, as robustly as appropriate. However, please do not engage in deliberate falsehoods. In post #11 I responded to a post, stating that Venus Williams non-trans status was irrelevant in relation to her bigger and more powerful physique vis a vis most other women tennis players, certainly not in the context of how you present it in point 2 of your previous post.
There is no sleight of hand in my posts. Read them again, quote them if you wish, then reply to them if you want. But please stop telling me what you think I said and then replying to that. It's getting really bloody tiresome.Your summary is characterised by sleight-of-hand. None of the four points you highlight lead to a conclusion, supported by science, that transwomen have a biological advantage in the field of sport. But you have consistently asserted that trans status does confer advantage, and that advantage is verified by science. My position is such claims are unsustainable in the absence of conclusive proof. That is the essence of our exchange.
Do continue to respond, if you are inclined, as robustly as appropriate. However, please do not engage in deliberate falsehoods. In post #11 I responded to a post, stating that Venus Williams non-trans status was irrelevant in relation to her bigger and more powerful physique vis a vis most other women tennis players, certainly not in the context of how you present it in point 2 of your previous post.
I entirely agree, the exchange is becoming somewhat monotonous, not to mention entrenched and unproductive- which echoes the wider debate. I made post #4 in this thread that stated my belief that any biological advantage possessed by a trans women in a female sporting event remained an assumption. You replied to my post (#9) to deny that it was an assumption, rather, you asserted it was a biological fact.There is no sleight of hand in my posts. Read them again, quote them if you wish, then reply to them if you want. But please stop telling me what you think I said and then replying to that. It's getting really bloody tiresome.
Yes, why not? As I stated earlier, one way out of the impasse may be to abolish gender categories and initiate categories based on height, weight etc. as in certain other sports.Why are you ignoring the key point that sports are divided by sex, not gender. You are arguing that female sports should be mixed sex.
Sorry, I don’t understand your point. What do you mean “conflating a gulf with 'pronounced genetic advantage”?At the 2017 swimming world championship (for a random example) the winner of the women's 100m butterfly swam 55.53s. This would have placed her 57th in the heats for the men's event. 3.5s away from last qualification spot. The man who came 25th in qualification could give her a 3s head-start and produce a close race.
You are conflating a gulf with 'pronounced genetic advantage'. It's disingenuous.
The point I made then, an now, is that make puberty is no assumption, but a biological fact. These changes are for the most part irreversible. No assumptions. But still you won't listen to this simple statement, 5 pages on!I entirely agree, the exchange is becoming somewhat monotonous, not to mention entrenched and unproductive- which echoes the wider debate. I made post #4 in this thread that stated my belief that any biological advantage possessed by a trans women in a female sporting event remained an assumption. You replied to my post (#9) to deny that it was an assumption, rather, you asserted it was a biological fact.
That is not what I think we both said- that is what we both said. And five pages later, the discussion has made minimal progress.