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Racism, sexism etc in sport.

Discussion in 'off topic' started by Tony Lockhart, Jan 22, 2023.

  1. Tony Lockhart

    Tony Lockhart Avoiding Stress, at Every Opportunity

    Could we have all non-sporting, but relevant to sport, discussions about racism, sexism etc in sport here?

    A certain thread is at risk of being dominated by fishes who’ll never even agree to disagree, so go for it!
  2. PaulMB

    PaulMB pfm Member

    Can't think, offhand, of situations exactly fitting your suggestion. Apart from the usual stuff of football fans hurling racist abuse at players from the "enemy" team, but sadly this is normal for the idiotic majority of football fans. But I will, as you put it, "go for it" (listed in the ghastly expressions thread) anyway.
    One aspect concerns trans-genders. In many sports men who have become women do, or would like to, compete as women. But this gives them an unfair advantage over women who have always been women. Which is demonstrated by the fact that there are no instances, as far as I know, of women who have become men who want to compete against men who have always been men, since they would be at a disadvantage. So, OK that you can choose your sex/gender, but what happens when this is unfair from the sports point of view?
    narabdela likes this.
  3. Tony Lockhart

    Tony Lockhart Avoiding Stress, at Every Opportunity


    Take a look at the 2023 F1 thread!
  4. Finnegan

    Finnegan pfm Member

    A questionable assumption. Leaving aside the effect of oestrogen (reducing muscle strength), take as an example Venus Williams. Her exceptionally powerful 6”1 athletic physique gave her an undoubted biological advantage over her opponents. Yet, I never heard any objection whatsoever from gender critical Martina Navratilova (who possesses an otherwise impeccable record as an advocate of sexual equality).

    Furthermore, the so called ‘Battle of the Sexes’ in 1973, between Billie Jean King and Bobby Riggs, ended in King wiping the floor with Riggs in three straight sets. Admittedly, Riggs was 55 years old to King’s 29, but King did not seek the confrontation, arch-sexist Rigg did, in an endeavour to prove decisively the ‘natural sporting superiority’ of men over women.
  5. PaulMB

    PaulMB pfm Member

    But it is not a sport in which physical strength is a primary ingredient.
  6. PaulMB

    PaulMB pfm Member

    But Venus Williams is not an ex-male.
  7. Sue Pertwee-Tyr

    Sue Pertwee-Tyr neither here nor there

    Have to disagree. F1 is a very physically demanding sport nowadays.
    myles, flutteringwow and narabdela like this.
  8. Tony Lockhart

    Tony Lockhart Avoiding Stress, at Every Opportunity

    The sexism and racism in F1 discussions can run and run. Some say the issues don’t exist.
  9. stevec67

    stevec67 pfm Member

    It's not questionable, it's the biological fact of having gone through a male puberty. This is acknowledged by sports physiologist s to confer a biological advantage, when considered across a population.
    Selecting an exceptional individual, such as Venus Williams, does not counter this. She is as you say, big and strong and extremely athletic, probably bigger and stronger than most men, despite having been born a girl and obviously then a female puberty. Had she been exposed to ma le hormones in puberty, which she wasn't, being a girl, she would have been bigger and stronger still.
    MikeMA and myles like this.
  10. PaulMB

    PaulMB pfm Member

    I'm sure it is, and always has been. But a muscular 6' 2" driver has no advantage over a wiry 5' 3" driver, and it is skill that makes the difference, not brute strength as in rowing or running. In F1 physical resilience is a basic requirement, but skill makes the difference, while in rowing technique is a basic requirement and physical resilience makes the difference. A sweeping generalisation, I grant you, that does not take into consideration tactics and intelligence in both sports, but basically true.
  11. Finnegan

    Finnegan pfm Member

    Irrelevant. Your objection was that the male physique is stronger, thus conferring an advantage.
  12. Finnegan

    Finnegan pfm Member

    But it does. Whilst not seeking to minimise her exceptional skill as a player, she had an obvious genetic advantage over most other female players. The exception that disproves the rule.
  13. Woodface

    Woodface pfm Member

    So a thread about sexism/misogyny ends up being a platform for some pretty abhorrent views. Venus & Serena were great players, end of.

    Plenty of female tennis players have been physically very strong, it’s a requirement.
  14. cutting42

    cutting42 Arrived at B4 Hacker Ergo

    Women in F1 is an interesting one, just to take strength by itself, it is not F1 by itself that is the problem. It is the feeder series process where cars do not have power steering, spec chassis that are designed around male physical strength. A 17 year old male can drive these cars well enough but a 17 year old female is not strong enough to be as competitive. Women can build their strength to the correct level but usually not until they are older by which time the opportunity would have passed.
    RJohan likes this.
  15. Woodface

    Woodface pfm Member

    Do have evidence of this or are you just guessing?
  16. Finnegan

    Finnegan pfm Member

    Really not sure how you drew that conclusion. Individuals have different genetic make up across the gender spectrum. Many professional basketball players are exceptionally tall. Jimi Hendrix and Robert Johnson both possessed a set of long digits. You need neither be tall to be a good basketball player, or have long fingers to be an exceptional guitarist, but in both instances, individual genetic make up can confer an advantage. Nothing abhorrent in acknowledging this.
  17. flutteringwow

    flutteringwow She called me baby, like an old romantic

    Are you on drugs? Thats an insane thing to write, it is brutally physically and mentally demanding.

    The F1 threads have 3-4 old-man-bigot members who frequent it sadly. They don't contribute much, only the occasional few lines to denounce the very pronounced racism that is present in the sport.

    More often or not they are Max Verstappen fans, as he has quite a 'white privilege' following and his team was owned/created by a right wing fascist and they have had many examples of prejudice behaviour over the years.
  18. Woodface

    Woodface pfm Member

    You are just unaware of how insulting your irrelevant observations are.

    You only seem to be talking about people of colour. What other stereotypes are you going to use to illustrate you points?
  19. Weekender

    Weekender pfm Member

    Nick Drake was tall and had long digits.
    Rubbish at basketball though.
    Tony Lockhart and Finnegan like this.
  20. Finnegan

    Finnegan pfm Member

    In what way are those irrelevant observations stereotypes?

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