advertisement


Racism, sexism etc in sport.

Tony Lockhart

Tony Lockhart

Avoiding Stress, at Every Opportunity
Could we have all non-sporting, but relevant to sport, discussions about racism, sexism etc in sport here?

A certain thread is at risk of being dominated by fishes who’ll never even agree to disagree, so go for it!
 
Can't think, offhand, of situations exactly fitting your suggestion. Apart from the usual stuff of football fans hurling racist abuse at players from the "enemy" team, but sadly this is normal for the idiotic majority of football fans. But I will, as you put it, "go for it" (listed in the ghastly expressions thread) anyway.
One aspect concerns trans-genders. In many sports men who have become women do, or would like to, compete as women. But this gives them an unfair advantage over women who have always been women. Which is demonstrated by the fact that there are no instances, as far as I know, of women who have become men who want to compete against men who have always been men, since they would be at a disadvantage. So, OK that you can choose your sex/gender, but what happens when this is unfair from the sports point of view?
 
PaulMB said:
Can't think, offhand, of situations exactly fitting your suggestion. Apart from the usual stuff of football fans hurling racist abuse at players from the "enemy" team, but sadly this is normal for the idiotic majority of football fans. But I will, as you put it, "go for it" (listed in the ghastly expressions thread) anyway.
One aspect concerns trans-genders. In many sports men who have become women do, or would like to, compete as women. But this gives them an unfair advantage over women who have always been women. Which is demonstrated by the fact that there are no instances, as far as I know, of women who have become men who want to compete against men who have always been men, since they would be at a disadvantage. So, OK that you can choose your sex/gender, but what happens when this is unfair from the sports point of view?
Click to expand...
A questionable assumption. Leaving aside the effect of oestrogen (reducing muscle strength), take as an example Venus Williams. Her exceptionally powerful 6”1 athletic physique gave her an undoubted biological advantage over her opponents. Yet, I never heard any objection whatsoever from gender critical Martina Navratilova (who possesses an otherwise impeccable record as an advocate of sexual equality).

Furthermore, the so called ‘Battle of the Sexes’ in 1973, between Billie Jean King and Bobby Riggs, ended in King wiping the floor with Riggs in three straight sets. Admittedly, Riggs was 55 years old to King’s 29, but King did not seek the confrontation, arch-sexist Rigg did, in an endeavour to prove decisively the ‘natural sporting superiority’ of men over women.
 
Finnegan said:
A questionable assumption. Leaving aside the effect of oestrogen (reducing muscle strength), take as an example Venus Williams. Her exceptionally powerful 6”1 athletic physique gave her an undoubted biological advantage over her opponents. Yet, I never heard any objection whatsoever from gender critical Martina Navratilova (who possesses an otherwise impeccable record as an advocate of sexual equality).

Furthermore, the so called ‘Battle of the Sexes’ in 1973, between Billie Jean King and Bobby Riggs, ended in King wiping the floor with Riggs in three straight sets. Admittedly, Riggs was 55 years old to King’s 29, but King did not seek the confrontation, arch-sexist Rigg did, in an endeavour to prove decisively the ‘natural sporting superiority’ of men over women.
Click to expand...

But Venus Williams is not an ex-male.
 
Finnegan said:
A questionable assumption. Leaving aside the effect of oestrogen (reducing muscle strength), take as an example Venus Williams. Her exceptionally powerful 6”1 athletic physique gave her an undoubted biological advantage over her opponents. Yet, I never heard any objection whatsoever from gender critical Martina Navratilova (who possesses an otherwise impeccable record as an advocate of sexual equality).

Furthermore, the so called ‘Battle of the Sexes’ in 1973, between Billie Jean King and Bobby Riggs, ended in King wiping the floor with Riggs in three straight sets. Admittedly, Riggs was 55 years old to King’s 29, but King did not seek the confrontation, arch-sexist Rigg did, in an endeavour to prove decisively the ‘natural sporting superiority’ of men over women.
Click to expand...
It's not questionable, it's the biological fact of having gone through a male puberty. This is acknowledged by sports physiologist s to confer a biological advantage, when considered across a population.
Selecting an exceptional individual, such as Venus Williams, does not counter this. She is as you say, big and strong and extremely athletic, probably bigger and stronger than most men, despite having been born a girl and obviously then a female puberty. Had she been exposed to ma le hormones in puberty, which she wasn't, being a girl, she would have been bigger and stronger still.
 
Sue Pertwee-Tyr said:
Have to disagree. F1 is a very physically demanding sport nowadays.
Click to expand...
I'm sure it is, and always has been. But a muscular 6' 2" driver has no advantage over a wiry 5' 3" driver, and it is skill that makes the difference, not brute strength as in rowing or running. In F1 physical resilience is a basic requirement, but skill makes the difference, while in rowing technique is a basic requirement and physical resilience makes the difference. A sweeping generalisation, I grant you, that does not take into consideration tactics and intelligence in both sports, but basically true.
 
stevec67 said:
Selecting an exceptional individual, such as Venus Williams does not counter this
Click to expand...
But it does. Whilst not seeking to minimise her exceptional skill as a player, she had an obvious genetic advantage over most other female players. The exception that disproves the rule.
 
So a thread about sexism/misogyny ends up being a platform for some pretty abhorrent views. Venus & Serena were great players, end of.

Plenty of female tennis players have been physically very strong, it’s a requirement.
 
Women in F1 is an interesting one, just to take strength by itself, it is not F1 by itself that is the problem. It is the feeder series process where cars do not have power steering, spec chassis that are designed around male physical strength. A 17 year old male can drive these cars well enough but a 17 year old female is not strong enough to be as competitive. Women can build their strength to the correct level but usually not until they are older by which time the opportunity would have passed.
 
cutting42 said:
Women in F1 is an interesting one, just to take strength by itself, it is not F1 by itself that is the problem. It is the feeder series process where cars do not have power steering, spec chassis that are designed around male physical strength. A 17 year old male can drive these cars well enough but a 17 year old female is not strong enough to be as competitive. Women can build their strength to the correct level but usually not until they are older by which time the opportunity would have passed.
Click to expand...
Do have evidence of this or are you just guessing?
 
Woodface said:
So a thread about sexism/misogyny ends up being a platform for some pretty abhorrent views. Venus & Serena were great players, end of.

Plenty of female tennis players have been physically very strong, it’s a requirement.
Click to expand...
Really not sure how you drew that conclusion. Individuals have different genetic make up across the gender spectrum. Many professional basketball players are exceptionally tall. Jimi Hendrix and Robert Johnson both possessed a set of long digits. You need neither be tall to be a good basketball player, or have long fingers to be an exceptional guitarist, but in both instances, individual genetic make up can confer an advantage. Nothing abhorrent in acknowledging this.
 
PaulMB said:
But it is not a sport in which physical strength is a primary ingredient.
Click to expand...

Are you on drugs? Thats an insane thing to write, it is brutally physically and mentally demanding.

PaulMB said:
Can't think, offhand, of situations exactly fitting your suggestion.
Click to expand...

The F1 threads have 3-4 old-man-bigot members who frequent it sadly. They don't contribute much, only the occasional few lines to denounce the very pronounced racism that is present in the sport.

https://www.hamiltoncommission.org/the-report

More often or not they are Max Verstappen fans, as he has quite a 'white privilege' following and his team was owned/created by a right wing fascist and they have had many examples of prejudice behaviour over the years.
 
Finnegan said:
Really not sure how you drew that conclusion. Individuals have different genetic make up across the gender spectrum. Many professional basketball players are exceptionally tall. Jimi Hendrix and Robert Johnson both possessed a set of long digits. You need neither be tall to be a good basketball player, or have long fingers to be an exceptional guitarist, but in both instances, individual genetic make up can confer an advantage. Nothing abhorrent in acknowledging this.
Click to expand...
You are just unaware of how insulting your irrelevant observations are.

You only seem to be talking about people of colour. What other stereotypes are you going to use to illustrate you points?
 
Finnegan said:
Really not sure how you drew that conclusion. Individuals have different genetic make up across the gender spectrum. Many professional basketball players are exceptionally tall. Jimi Hendrix and Robert Johnson both possessed a set of long digits. You need neither be tall to be a good basketball player, or have long fingers to be an exceptional guitarist, but in both instances, individual genetic make up can confer an advantage. Nothing abhorrent in acknowledging this.
Click to expand...
Nick Drake was tall and had long digits.
Rubbish at basketball though.
 
Woodface said:
You are just unaware of how insulting your irrelevant observations are.

You only seem to be talking about people of colour. What other stereotypes are you going to use to illustrate you points?
Click to expand...
In what way are those irrelevant observations stereotypes?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.


advertisement


Back
Top